Nitrate Reduction 101 with sugar!!!

[marrone]

You have a lot of fish in a 75gal tank, plus you have 150lb LR and a 3" sand bed which reduces the water volume even more. Also 1 cube of brine shrimp isn't enough for the fish that you have, both quanity and quailty wise.

A bigger skimmer will help, as the Prizm isn't good enough for the load you have in the tank.

You need to reduce your fish population some what and then do some larger water changes in a row. Try doing 25%-35% water changes for 2 - 3 days in a row. That should bring down the nitrates down. Also try cleaning up the tank for any junk or excess algae, do the same in the sump.

When doing the large water changes make sure the new water matches the tank as closely as possible, as not to shock your system.

 

[MO~IDOL]

Thanks marrone...
I've match as close as it can and run a MAG 7 with the water(RO/DI) over night

 

[spykes]

if your having no3 problems your tank is very immature. If you want to stablize the tank start removing fishes and selling thme off allowing the tank's organic level to drop to little or nothing. your problem is having a imcomplete filtration system. You should not be looking for a biological way of increasing bacteria load. Oviously There is enough nitrafying bacteria to begin with. That is why you have 40 PPM of nitrate and not ammonia.

 

[MO~IDOL]

what do u mean by having a imcomplete filtration system? what else do i need besides a bigger better skimmer? please reply thanks..

 

[spykes]

filter sock, high flow to remove ditrus, phosphate media or carbon anything that removes organics before break down is necessary for someone new. Your allowing the bacteria to create organics to the nitrogin cycle. What you should do is lower it as much as possible and eliminate the source of production to begin with. Until your tank's filtration is ready your gonna have high levels of reading. if your no3 is high im guessing your po4 is also high. Get a phosphate test kit to test for po4.

 

[MO~IDOL]

i did phosphate test too 0.005(not salifert)
I do have carbon and Boyd Enterprises CHEMI-PURE running 24/7 don't have filter sock though...I don't like shot cut that's why I want to find out anyone on borad tried...Thanks

 

[ShaunW]

Well these guys gave some great advice (Mike and Dave). Ditto on all their points.

if your having no3 problems your tank is very immature. If you want to stablize the tank start removing fishes and selling thme off allowing the tank's organic level to drop to little or nothing. your problem is having a imcomplete filtration system. You should not be looking for a biological way of increasing bacteria load. Oviously There is enough nitrafying bacteria to begin with. That is why you have 40 PPM of nitrate and not ammonia.

He mean looking for a biological way to increase the ability of bacteria to break down nitrate. Good porous rock, and allowing the rock/sand bed to mature to harbor the bacteria needed to complete the N-cycle.

Adding some macroalgae and running you tank on a reverse lighting schedule is also another great means to reduce nitrate.

 

[ShaunW]

So in simple terms:
Less fish.
Continue doing water changes.
Better skimmer.
Patience to let you reef continue to mature.

(Did I miss anything else, :scratch: ? Mike&Dave?)

 

[MO~IDOL]

update: since then I've upgrade a DelTec AP600 skimmer 10% water change weekly for 2 months nitrate has not change at all still 40ppm. so I bite the bullet and start dosing sugar (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=898931)

First 2 weeks not much change.
The third week nitrate drop down to 5ppm.
I've test nitrite ammonia phosphate every other day did not change a bit.
All live stocks are doing fine.

 

[amethyst212]

ok glad that it went down but did you even bother in reducing your fish. if the experts said to reduce the amount of fish and yet you dont do it and wonder why you still have your levels high, then whats the point of wasting their time.

also i like my things sweet and salty, but dont mean that applies to my fish,
hey i might just add some Grey Goose vodka since i like that and see what happens, maybe my corals and my inverts start spawning like crazy.


remember these quick little fixes dont mean anything until you find the root of ur problem, You cant Just Sugar Coat things.:lol:

 

[MO~IDOL]

ok glad that it went down but did you even bother in reducing your fish. if the experts said to reduce the amount of fish and yet you dont do it and wonder why you still have your levels high, then whats the point of wasting their time.

also i like my things sweet and salty, but dont mean that applies to my fish,
hey i might just add some Grey Goose vodka since i like that and see what happens, maybe my corals and my inverts start spawning like crazy.


remember these quick little fixes dont mean anything until you find the root of ur problem, You cant Just Sugar Coat things.:lol:

nope..I don't listen to other people, but I'll take the advice and do more search before I do things
who doesn't over stock and which experts don't have issue (sooner or later)
I'm sure every experts dosing too. Do u think dosing is quick fix??? and what's the differents between AZNO3

BTW: I'm not here to argue just want ot share some info for those who wants quick fix. u can add anything to YOUR tank "do what ever works for you right"

Do you consider Rob from "talking reef.com" as exprert??? sorry to here his lost
http://www.talkingreef.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2648#

 

[jcurry]

Dosing sugar or vodka is just a way to add a carbon source to support a higher bacteria population. There's not really a problem with it as long as you don't stop dosing. You can find a lot of threads about dosing sugar and vodka and how it improved the tanks. The problem is when you stop dosing the benithic organisms (i.e. bacteria and such) die off and can create a problem.

 

[Harif87]

What has me curious is the idea that it might not be the anaerobic bacteria doing the nitrate reduction. Were there experiments done that measured the presence of N2 in the water? If not, how can a person say that anaerobic bacteria is responsible? It could be some other phenomena at work that we dont realize.

There is a whole bunch of possible things that can go wrong by adding sugar, such as:

-potential development of bacteria's dependence on sugar.
-promotion of unwanted bacteria growths
-potential negative effect on dissolved Calcium levels

Those are just possible things. Im not saying that they will or can happen, im just saying that its possible that sugar might cause problems, whether immediate or in the longrun.

 

[ShaunW]

Facultative anaerobic bacteria (bacteria that can grow under anaerobic and aerobic conditions) can utilize nitrate as a final electron acceptor in place of oxygen for the maintenance of a proton motive gradient to continue growth, albet under microaerophilic and anaerobic conditions.

Certain bacterial strains, like the genus Mycobacterium, can function as nitrate reducers converting nitrate to nitrite. They can actually do this at low levels during aerobic growth. Mycobacterium marium is part of the normal bacterial population of a reef tank.

 

[jcurry]

"potential development of bacteria's dependence on sugar"

It seems to me from the accounts that I've read that the bacteria absolutely becomes dependant on the added carbon source. Thus the negative effects when the carbon source is removed.

Solby are saying it may be possible to reverse the nitrogen cycle if Mycobacterium becomes too dominent?

 

[Harif87]

It seems to me from the accounts that I've read that the bacteria absolutely becomes dependant on the added carbon source. Thus the negative effects when the carbon source is removed.

Exactly my point

 

[Aqua Pro Builder]

Facultative anaerobic bacteria (bacteria that can grow under anaerobic and aerobic conditions) can utilize nitrate as a final electron acceptor in place of oxygen for the maintenance of a proton motive gradient to continue growth, albet under microaerophilic and anaerobic conditions.

Certain bacterial strains, like the genus Mycobacterium, can function as nitrate reducers converting nitrate to nitrite. They can actually do this at low levels during aerobic growth. Mycobacterium marium is part of the normal bacterial population of a reef tank.

Solby,
Speed up your study of the bacterial analysis. Let us know ASAP. BTW in this discussion, someone mentioned dependency, can you add that to your agenda of study as well, including lighting, water movement ...? I know you have it all planned out-no need for me to remind you.

We need actual scientific data and actual personnal experiences instead of vague arguments on things that many of us have not tried nor seen. Hope your study will bring some light to our reefing myths.:inlove:

 

[ShaunW]

Solby are saying it may be possible to reverse the nitrogen cycle if Mycobacterium becomes too dominent?

Yes and no. Nitrate to nitrite via Mycobacteria, would still leave nitrite to be dealt with. It could go to ammonia, or it could be converted back to nitrate by other bacterial species. It really depends on the bacterial population.

 

[ShaunW]

It seems to me from the accounts that I've read that the bacteria absolutely becomes dependant on the added carbon source. Thus the negative effects when the carbon source is removed.

If you mean dependant, specifically dependant, then this is an incorrect term.

Bacteria are able to grow and not grow (become stationary). In both cases they are living. By adding a high energy carbon source, all you are doing is promoting growth of all bacteria present. For example in the case of sugar, sucrose would be used by almost all bacteria. Does this mean that they become dependant on sucrose, well not really, when the sucrose is exhausted then the bacterial growth will also become exhausted. However adding another carbon source, glycerol for example, would cause the whole growth spurt to occur all over again. If you mean in general that bacteria are dependant on a carbon source (any source) then I guess you could say that they are dependant. But it is like saying humans are addicted/dependant to oxygen.

Like us, bacteria (all species) will use whatever "food" is available at the time to reproduce, i.e. grow.

 

[Chiefmcfuz]

Solby,
Speed up your study of the bacterial analysis. Let us know ASAP.
We need actual scientific data and actual personnal experiences instead of vague arguments on things that many of us have not tried nor seen. Hope your study will bring some light to our reefing myths.:inlove:

While I am eager to see the results of your study shaun I am a firm believer in not rushing as I know you are, when you have your results I will be extatic, but wingnut if Shaun rushes the study it could produce incorrect results.

Shaun good job and thank you for all of your efforts and dedication.