Mythbusters

[Psycho graphic]

I think a lot of things we are told in this hobby are just accepted as fact without any proof to back them up. My common sense says some of things things just don't have logic behind them. I'm not saying I'm right on these things, but so far no one has given me any proof to why I'm wrong with thinking the accepted knowledge of some of these things are wrong.

I have recently posted about one of these things on another thread, so no sense beating a dead horse on that one. I thought starting a thread to either prove or disprove some theories could be fun and also a way for us to learn.

With that said, I don't understand the idea that artificial sources (bio-balls, foam sleaves, etc.) of colonizing bacteria are considered "nitrate factories" over LS and LR.

I do understand if you have no LS or LR to give anerobic bacteria a place to grow, your nitrates will go up. But if you do have LR and or LS to house these bacteria, why would it matter where the source of nitate comes from? Ammo is converted to nitrite to nitrate through aerobic bacteria what difference does it make if these bacteria colonize in the LR/LS or from bio-balls as long as you have anerobic bacteria in your system to to then convert the nitrates.

I have posed this question many times on various forums with0ut once ever getting an actual answer.

I hope I worded this so it was understandable.

With this said anybody else have questions or debates over things that make no sense to them, but are just generally accepted?

I also want it known, this is to learn and understand, not just for arguments sake!

 

[bad coffee]

Bioballs and foam sleeves trap detrius. As it decomposes it turns (eventually) into nitrates. If your tank has enough bacteria to break all of it down, you won't notice it. However, most tanks don't. So bioballs and foam sleves become 'nitrate factories'

 

[SuRFeR BoY]

agreed. the key word is if. but what if your pre filter and sleeves/sock do a good job filtering out all the detrius before reaching the bio balls. does micro fine particials get through collecting on the bio balls causing nitrates to rise?? i always thought that bio balls were used to colonize bacteria that break these nitrates ect down?! the pre filters and socks were used to trap the detrius so that is does not collect on the bio balls and cause this problem :scratch:

 

[meschaefer]

i always thought that bio balls were used to colonize bacteria that break these nitrates ect down?!

That is the problem with bioballs, they don't have an anerobic area to break nitrates down. Since they don't have an anerobic area, they can only host areobic bacteria that break down amonia and nitrite to nitrate. You need an anerobic bacteria to break down nitrate into nitrogen and oxygen.


In theory it is completely feasible to have proper de nitrification with bioballs, if you have a sufficient amount of live rock and deep sand bed to create the anerobic areas in the tank. But if you have enough live rock and sand to accomplish that, it kind of begs the question "Why do you need the bioballs".

Furthermore the efficiency of the system is reduces as Nitrate that are produced at the bioballs, are nor readily available to the anerobic bacteria in the Live Rock, and have to move through they system from one to the other.

When you use live rock, you have a population of aerobic baceteria at the surface and anerobic bacteria in the low/no oxygen interior of the rock. When the Amonia and Nitrite are broken down at the rocks surface into nitrate, the nitrate is readily available to the anerobic bacteria a little deeper into the rock.

 

[meschaefer]

agreed. the key word is if. but what if your pre filter and sleeves/sock do a good job filtering out all the detrius before reaching the bio balls. does micro fine particials get through collecting on the bio balls causing nitrates to rise?? :scratch:

The problem with foam blocks and filter socks is if they are not cleaned reagulary is that they catch and hold a signficant amoun of detrius, and prevent it from being removed by a protein skimmer. The foam block also acts like a bioball, i.e. it has a lot of surface area for aerobic bacteria, but does not have an anerobic are

 

[ShaunW]

Some definitions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaerobic_organism

Only obligate anaerobic bacteria or facultative anaerobic bacteria can break down nitrate to nitrogen in the absence of oxygen. Therefore, there must be a oxygen limiting environment somewhere in the tank to create the environment for bacteria to perform this function. A DSB serves this role. Live rock does not.

The idea that live rock can provide the niche for anaerobic respiration to occur is a myth IMO. Oxygenated water is going to penetrate all aspects of the rock, especially with all the flow we have in our tanks. Even if there is a microaerophilic space within the rock, I don't think that the amount of space is enough for a sufficient quantity of bacteria to reside to perform significant nitrate conversion.

 

[ShaunW]

Live rock collects detritus also.

 

[Psycho graphic]

When the Amonia and Nitrite are broken down at the rocks surface into nitrate, the nitrate is readily available to the anerobic bacteria a little deeper into the rock.

What difference is where the nitrite converted to nitrate is being done, as long as it's in the water column and reaching the areas that house the anerobic bacteria?

It makes sense to me that the flow in your tank will carry it away from the rock where the aerobic bacteria are anyway.

 

[Psycho graphic]

But if you have enough live rock and sand to accomplish that, it kind of begs the question "Why do you need the bioballs".

I agree, you don't need it, but my point is (and maybe I did'nt make this clear) I hear people constantly telling others that bio-balls are bad for a system and will raise your nitrates. Obviously without a souce of anerobic bacteria, they will. But by having a source of this bacteria (anerobic) it makes them no worse than the same bacteria that LR uses (aerobic).

 

[jackson6745]

Psycho graphic, I like this idea for a thread. We need to think of examples other than bioballs.

I think bio-balls got a bad wrap in the first place because the filtration systems associated with bio-balls(wetdrys, cheap skimmers) are a complete failure. It didn't take long(for some of us) to figure out that if I put these blue things in my sump my nitrates will be extremely high, algae will grow all over, and my livestock will look horrible:dead1:

Is it the bio-balls fault? NO. It is the systems lack of capability to export wastes. If you put bio-balls in a reef with high water quality you will not get a rise in nitrates. Every crevice in your reef will collect detritus. A good skimmer, refugium, and proper husbandry will keep great water quality regardless.

My 2 cents:happysad:

 

[Psycho graphic]

I'm glad you like this idea.

Like this topic, I think there are many things that are taken for and accept as truth, when if you take the time to figure it out are'nt really as true as we are led to believe.

I recently gave up on posting on one site for a few reasons, one was the fact that people there tend to just regurgitate a lot of what they read without having a working knowledge of what they are talking about or bothering to do some research on their own. When you go against the pack, you kind of get labeled a trouble maker (hence my title).

 

[inline6]

Every crevice in your reef will collect detritus. A good skimmer, refugium, and proper husbandry will keep great water quality regardless.

My 2 cents:happysad:

Thank you Rich, well said.

 

[noodleman]

here's a pic of my old 30 gal....it had bio-balls, a sea clone skimmer and good old tap water:tongue1: :lol2: ....thats xenia all over my front glass btw

 

[WaterPlant]

associations and assumptions

a lot of members may have associated bio-balls with wet-dry filer and thus users of them were assumed to have no other means of exporting the nutrients nor even the will to "clean the balls"-a phrase borrowed from another thread. so far i have seen only one member here continuously telling people to "clean the balls" and add nutrients exporting components in the system provided that they already have the balls in the system.

a lot of members may have also associated live rock with super high flow and cleaning with turkey blaster by default and thus users of live rock were assumed to know what to do with the rock and has the will to clean them regularly.

in addressing the point about if we already have enough nitrate decomposing bacteria somewhere in the system why bother to have duplicates. one member advised me that it's always safer in case one component is not doing the job. also if the balls are there in the first place, I see no point of removing them as long as we change our habit of not cleaning the balls. like solby said, rocks also collect dirt. but a lot of us already assumed we will clean it by powerheads, pumps and turkey blasters.

we probably have a lot of knowledge in how to use live rock but very little in how to use bio-balls nor willingness to understand how they can be used.

 

[Awibrandy]

I hope this thread continues on. It will make for some interesting reading, and learning.
My 75g.FOWLR, southdown sand, lr, and yes a wet/dry with bioballs running without it's skimmer. Skimmer got borrowed for the 155g.bow temporarily. This tank doesn't give any of the troubles the 155g. w/refugium,cheato, calurpa, skimmer, iwaki wmd40 return pump, phosban reactor.
Just an observation.

 

[meschaefer]

I hope this thread continues on. It will make for some interesting reading, and learning.
My 75g.FOWLR, southdown sand, lr, and yes a wet/dry with bioballs running without it's skimmer. Skimmer got borrowed for the 155g.bow temporarily. This tank doesn't give any of the troubles the 155g. w/refugium,cheato, calurpa, skimmer, iwaki wmd40 return pump, phosban reactor.
Just an observation.

What are your nitrates?

 

[tomzpc]

Some definitions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaerobic_organism
The idea that live rock can provide the niche for anaerobic respiration to occur is a myth IMO. Oxygenated water is going to penetrate all aspects of the rock, especially with all the flow we have in our tanks. Even if there is a microaerophilic space within the rock, I don't think that the amount of space is enough for a sufficient quantity of bacteria to reside to perform significant nitrate conversion.

I don't think that this is a myth at all. I've been running nitrate-free systems for years with little or no sand whatsoever. Where is the anaerobic bacteria if not in the rock?

 

[tomzpc]

I agree on bio-balls getting a bad rap. They aren't necessary or even desirable but they also aren't the demon that many make them out to be. The term "nitrate factory" pertains more to wet/dry filters which more often than not make use of bio-balls in an oxygen rich environment. Using bio-balls in a submerged environment won't have nearly the same effect when it comes to producing nitrates.

 

[Awibrandy]

What are your nitrates?

para. in that tank are as follow, also consider that the tank has been neglected due to all of my time going to the doctors, and the researching and planning of the 155. But my life is begining to settle down. I will have the time to care for it as it should be.

PH 8.4
salinity 1.020
Temp.79-80
ammo. 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 20
phosphate 2.5
Besides monthly wc, your also suppose to rinse the bioballs. Which I normally do every couple of months. Had not done so in 5 months hence the high nitrate which for a fish only tank it is not disatreous.

 

[jackson6745]

Awibrandy your water parms are poof of the inefficiency of your filtration system. Corals would not do well in there and if you put bright light on that tank, the algae would be out of control.
I don't mean to sound like a jerk, I just don't want people to thing that wetdry filtration will give good results for a reef (or FO for that matter).

What are the water parms on the 155? what sort of trouble are you having?