captive spawning of damsels

[Anonymous]

hello all, i'm a newbie(to forums). anyway, some years ago, i had some beau gregory damsels spawn continually for about a year in a 75 minireef setup(my first reef tank). got alot of the courtship,and 'nest' tending by the male on video.if anyone wants anecdotal descriptions or observations, i'd be happy to share(for starters, they were spawning every 3-4 days, and the male was going from nest to nest continually-huge amounts of eggs- cool 'flashing' dances-etc.).peace(some fry survived, too).

 

[jamesw]

I for one would like to hear more about it. How did your fry survive?? Did they survive in your main tank, or were you isolating them for feeding, etc.

Cheers
James Wiseman

 

[Anonymous]

thanx for asking-after typing this i'll prob'ly have to crack my knuckles all over again... :lol: the tank was an acrilyc 18"x18"x60",3x175wtt coralife 10khalides,one phillips 40wtt actinic.filtration:just a redsea berlin skimmer.(this was in '98-'99). fish residents:pair tomatoe clowns;yellow tang;3 beau gregory's(more on that later):pacific eel goby(can't remember the latin name-deep purple with cream colored irregular bars,pattern is different as juvenile.dorsal and anal fins run along the whole body,way cool).invertspartial list)elegans coral,lge 'colt' coral,lge. neon green nephthea,branching torch,sm.green hammer,4-5 assorted sm,leathers (devil's hand,etc.),star, yellow,button,clove polyps,'shrooms-asst'd, pagoda, and some more i can't remember and are hidden from view in the video.the tank surface skimmed into a rubbermaid 30 gal capacity sump(more on that later, too).the 'reef' structure was built touching the back wall of the tank about 3-4" from the top and angled towards about 6-8" from the back wall at the bottom,creating a 'cave' environment along the entire length of the tank.(more on that, too).
feeding consisted of flake-standard community marine fare from diff. companies,spirulina(lots,both flake and dried sheets,with supplements of chopped clam,shrimp, and tank produced plankton.(nightly blooms-used to watch all sorts of crazy stuff show up at night)
parameters-temp 80-82 F.,Ca about 320,dKh about 8,S.G.-.023-.025
nitrates,phosphates not measurable(red sea kits- ran phos.remover occasionally- no carbon ever)water change every week 10-15% with red sea mix- pH stable at 8.2-8.3 measured with elec.meter.photoperiod was LONG-12+ hrs.usually from 10a.m. to midnight(related to spawning?) R.O.D.I water
in april,'98, two of the gregory's completely changed color,(from their bluish on top,orangish sides and belly)to solid dark purple(maybe navy-i'm slightly color blind for dark shades of blue)-while the third retained the (juvenile)original color.the female(allways plump, but not fat):about 1&/1/4"TL;the male; about 1 &/3/4"TL.both of the pair were very active in the tank, and continuously harassed the 'juvenile' non stop.they would disappear for hours at a time, and show up when feeding or beating up on the 'odd greg. out'.never bothered the other fish, though.
about 2 wks. later i caught the 'flashing' courtship of the male(WAAY COOL).the lower 3rd of his flanks turned a darkish lime green(best description i can come up with)and did the following:he would start a 'loop' swimming pattern-a sudden jerk from near the top of the tank, going down and up in a complete and tight-(only 6" diameter, maybe) circle,staying within 1-2" of the front rock face-creating a flash as the green lower part of his body inverted with his back(imagine tying a string to a pin,the other end to the greg's belly,while the fish trys to swim straight.after a while he'd reverse the direction.less than a second per loop-sometimes more than ten loops in a series, allways in view of the female, and then they'd disappear again.
(i'll send this now for starters- there's some stuff i want to check on the video...

 

[Anonymous]

video has been checked,knuckles cracked,dog walked...
the pair had evidently been spawning allready,for after looking 'down' the back wall (from the side of the tank, i could see multiple patches of eggs, app. a foot or so apart from each other.the male went from one to the other, fanning & picking 'em clean,removing an occasional(infertile) egg. or munge, before moving on to the next patch.all maintenance work was performed exclusively by the male.
the patches differed in size, from app. 1" square to an irregular area app.4"x2" at the longest and widest points.eggs were translucent gray/ white,about 1mm, and by approximate count, the larger patches numbered in the high hundreds to shy of a thousand(i don't know if this sounds right, but i know my counts weren't that far off, i used to count shrimp larvae populations by sample volumes in a breeding hatchery-i actually counted a small portion of the patch and extrapolated for the area, hence the range estimates.
what really struck me was how similiar the behavior of the gregs pair behavior and spawning technique was to freshwater cichlids(spawning was identical in pattern to angelfish).the female would lay a row starting low and traveling up towards the top of the tank.when a row was completed the male would follow to fertilize, travelling in the same direction.the larger patches were done in about an hour.sometimes the pair would take a break for a few minutes,and continue where they left off on the same patch.about 3 days later they be makin' whoopie again :!:
hatching occured about 2 weeks after spawning(could be wrong,lost my log notes when i moved here from mass.,and this is strictly from memory, and the one datum i'm hazy about).it started around 12-2 a.m., 'till dawn, and again the next night, until the entire patch was done (sometmes lasting 2-3 nights).fry were about 4mm TL and a tenth as thick,slightly silvery in color,eyes black and easily visible(best comparison i can think of is betta splendens fry from my freshwater breeding days-looked almost identical - using eyes only).they appeared to be phototropic.
i consider myself lucky in that the pair kept spawning for such a long time, for it gave me enough time to figure out how to collect and try to raise 'em.(lots of trial and error here, and i knew my limited resources probably wouldn't yield any grow out results- what i got w/out even a 'proper' rotifer culture setup was still amazing to me , nonetheless.
more to follow: the setup is kinda hard to describe- gonna be a long description :!:

 

[Anonymous]

o.k. here's how i collected 'em.there were a few things to deal with.i had quite a few pumps in the tank, in addition to the two in the sump(for the return and the skimmer,a mag drive and a rio, inside the tank were two mag drives,aquaclear powerheads, and some mini powerheads(about 7 total in the tank, used simple timers for 'pulse' effects.i had no extra space to set up a new tank, and i had to try to culture some kind of food, knowing i'd prob'ly need algae and rotifer cultures,and i was not able to continue staying up all night to collect 'em.SO-i took a five gallon bucket, and drilled out(with a hole saw) a ring of holes app. 1.5" spaced about 1.5" apart, and about 2" from the top- glued fiberglass window screen patches over the holes, and glued fine mesh filter bag material(5 micron (?)) over the fiberglass, with a hot glue gun.this went in the sump.(solved the where.).a .5" (i.d.) plastic tube is what i used to get the fry into the bucket, clamping it on the tank so that it's end was about 3/4" distance from (the wall of the tank) the eggs-feeding into the bucket- created a relatively gentle vacuum. as the fry hatched, most were immediately tranfered automatically, and the trip didn't seem to hurt 'em at all. i had also set up two 'jungle dirt magnet' sponge filters in may, they were 'established' in the sump.one was placed in the bucket, raised about 1/4" off the floor with 2 plastic rods from a guppy hatchery net.(didn't want to get the fry trapped, and wanted best flow through sponge).took some glass jars (pickle), filled 'em with tankwater, and set 'em on a windowsill, to try culturing a little phytoplankton(with small airstones). (water got lightly green in a coupla days).one of the problems seemed to be that the waste levels in the bucket rising from the large amount of fry and food introduced (?)caused most of the hatches to 'crash' after about a week.i also used hardboiled eggyolk suspension- could see some of the fry actually swallowing it after about 4 days old.the siphon feed into the bucket was off during feeding, and the bottom of the bucket was siphined off with airline tubing after the feedstuffs settled.now here's the twist- about 4-6 weeks after i started this rigamarole, i found about 15-20 1/4" long fry in the main tank!(took about a week of patience to catch 'em-used glass jar placed on bottom of tank, and brine shrimp net.fed 'em baby brine and pulverized spirulina flake, at about .5-.75" gave 'em to one of my clients(i was just too busy to continue w/the whole deal.
the gregs kept on spawning for the better part of a year, until i had to downsize the tank to a small bowfront. not sure why they stopped after the move, they still seemed to be bonded as a pair(it might have been a space issue).so whaddaya think? comments, please- and sorry for being so verbose!

 

[Louis Z]

Sometimes moving breeding pairs of cichlids can interrupt their spawning behavior and sometimes the pair itself. Did you keep the same type of cave system in your new tank? Maybe trying some type of removable slate or clay spawning base would help in removing the eggs. I wouldnt remove them until almost at time of hatch- after watching them for several runs you probably could average their hatch time. But I wouldnt move them to a sterile tank but another tank with LR and DSB that has no other fish and that is supplied with or w/o a refugium. This way it would solve the problem of ammonia, nitrites and nitrates and you dont have to worry about a sponge filter clogging up and causing more problems. I would still raise food cultures such as both sizes of rotifers, paramecium, a micro algae, a dinoflagellate and copepods and add them to the tank to make sure that there is enough food in the tank and that the food is enriched naturally with the algaes. I think that many places and breeders put to much emphasis on removing the eggs too soon and placing in sterile conditions- so difficult to maintain water quality and supply a small enough food. As in cichlids, keeping the eggs with the parents usually translates into a higher ratio of success- They do a better job of fanning and removing infertile or infected eggs that we could ever do. Okay maybe methylene blue, airstone and a razor blade may work -but only if the parents continue to eat the spawn. If the parents continue to eat the spawn then this is probably due to an inadequate adult diet which would lead them to destroy the eggs due to hunger, infertility or defects. I also believe that raising a small amount(culling early) of fry rather than 1000+ would probably have a more successful end - stronger and more robust fry. We are not trying to mass produce them as a food item but as a quality product. Koi breeders often cull in different stages to get a better fish. As for food I think that many people rely on rotifers and BBS too much-What works with anenomefish may not work with all fish. I doubt that one food regimen works with all fish. It just takes the right combination for each particular fish( which is almost an endless task). Thats why dumping different types of food in a tank is better than trying to come up with the right combo. At my favorite LFS one of the employees would tell me of an aquarist that had the FW Amano shrimp. The aquarist would clean out the Eheim on a monthly basis and find small shrimp in the bottom of the Eheim filter. This filter would have to be filthy-yet it was supplying the right food source for the shrimp larvae to mature and grow. So just as in your case leaving the spawn alone resulted in a few fry( which was perfect) - what would someone do with hundreds of BeauGregorys- think of trying to house and feed them all without overcrowded conditions. Just to let you know I have never raised a single SW fish - I dont have a SW tank( I want one). I have never raised any of the food items either. So one can dismiss my ideas if they want - But I have done alot of research and reading in the past year about raising larvae - with that and my experience with FW I hope to do so in the future. ^Thank you for sharing your experiences, with little tidbits of info maybe we can solve the hobbys dependence on WC fish. Louis Z.

 

[Anonymous]

a correction:i found the second video, and turns out the hatching started about 4 days or less after spawning.(my bad).jamesw-i managed to get some still captures using intervideo wincoder(video editing software) of the eggmass w/ the siphon tube end setup, as well as some of the eggs in profile view just before hatching-it's a teeny bit grainy looking, but i'd like to know(if you or anyone else is interested, how and to where i can upload the shots- i'm computer stupid) :?: