Help! Why can't I keep fish alive???

[Anonymous]

Originally posted by BradB:


As I said, ammonia/nitrite and nitrate are about 0. Nitrates were present earlier, and slowly fell - indicating my tank cycled normally. Again, this would hit the corals harder than the fish


Sorry but this is wrong. Most corals under the correct lighting conditions are much hardier than fish in a new ( 4 months old ) tank.
I'm still awaiting answers to my questions but I believe I'm gonna step out of this thread.

Regards,
David Mohr

 

[Emperator]

Brad,

18 fish in a 120 is on the high side. It seems like you were planning a reef tank but ended up with a fish tank with corals.

With that many fish, I am sure the crowding and belligerence exacted at other fish are causing the high death rate.

HTH

 

[naesco]

Your fish are dying because you are not giving them a chance to live.
This is not a flame it is a fact which unfortuneatley most new reefers experience so don't feel badly.
Others can cover the water perameters and stuff I will help you with the livestock if you want me to.
Here's the deal. We will try to keep as many of the fish you already have alive.
First of all under no circumstances whatsoever should you add anything further to your tank. It will just compound the problem.
What livestock is still alive?
Which ones are not eating? Thin? Bloated?
Is there any evidence of ich on any fish?
What and how much and how often are you feeding them.
Are you prepared to take some of them back to the LFS or give/sell them to friends if necessary? Which ones would you like to keep
Do you have a 10 gal that you could use for medication if necessary?
In any event in the morning go buy some garlic extract(pure) from a health food store, some Selcon and a bottle of GreenX which you can use if necessary in the 10 gallon for ich. Don't bother with copper (IMO). Get some dried nori (unflavoured) from an Asian store.

 

[BradB]

davidmohr:

At 4 months your tank is certainly immature for all the fish you've been adding even though you've said it has been done slowly.

Again, dead fish don't count toward tank capacity. There were never 30+ live fish in the tank at once. Biological filtration has always been more than adaquate.


As for specific types of fish, to the best of my knowlege:


Living Fish:

8 (9?) Squamipinnis psuedoanthias (lyertail anthias)
1 Gobiosoma oceanops (neon goby)
3 Gobiodon okinawae (clown goby)
1 Sarlarius fasciatus (lawnmower blenny)
3 Chromis viridis (green chromis)

Disapeared without cause:

1 Paracanthurus hepatus (blue regal tang, 6 days, was eating flake)
1 Acanthurus lineatus (10 days, was eating flake)
1 Synchiropus splendidus (Green Mandarin - disapeared 1 day after being added, didn't starve).
1 Pearly Jawfish (disapeared after 2 weeks, and several burrows)
1 Cryptocentrus cinctus (Yellow watchman goby - disappeared after 2 weeks).


Other unexplained dead fish:

1 Paracanthurus hepatus (the body was recovered, but in good shape)
2 talboti damsels (one found in good shape under a rock - my first fish; the other banished to the sump, and possibly sucked into the return, or eaten by a banished welk)
1 flame angel (lossed his tail (damsel?), then disappeared)


Explainable deaths:

1 Pseudocheilinus evanidus (sufficated in a trap when I tried to return it)
1 or 2 lyertail anthias (neither ate well, 1 was never found, and maybe alive with the others)
1 Kole Tang (was seen injured (damsel?), didn't recover)
9 green chromis (other green chromis seen harrassing them, several were found nipped to shreads)
1 magenta dottyback (in good shape, till someone (damsel?) nipped away his rear half)


How are you acclimating them?

1 half hour of slowly adding tank water to the bag. The fish is then netted, and the water discarded.


Are you quarantining them?

No, I don't see this any different from leaving them at the LFS a while - I trust my LFS, and they have a better setup for this than I do. Again, most diseases would effect all the fish, and show a slow deterioration. I could be more careful here, but it doesn't explain anything about most of the cases.


One week in a LFS doesn't say much.

It shows in general they didn't die primarily from the shock and stress of capture and transport.


What are you feeding besides flake?

Mysis shrimp, I used to use zooplankton too.

 

[BradB]

Emperator:

Brad,
18 fish in a 120 is on the high side. It seems like you were planning a reef tank but ended up with a fish tank with corals.

This is only a difference in symantics


With that many fish, I am sure the crowding and belligerence exacted at other fish are causing the high death rate.

Consider the size of the fish I keep - also, no signs of agression are present (since the damsel was removed) and biological filtration is a non-issue. Even so, crowding cannot cause fish to live healthy for 2 weeks then disappear.

 

[BradB]

Thanks to everyone with experience who actually read this whole post and tried to help, but this thread is going nowhere fast. Very little of what was said actually relates to the questions I asked and most peoples have ignored facts about my tank or taken things way out of context. I guess this is the problem with the internet. I don't plan to continue asking and corrected, and probably won't be back to this post, but will seek a more indirect approach to my questions.

 

[ophiuroid]

As you won't be reading this, I guess I will flame away this time, and others who have seen the light will understand.

I am outraged.

The problem is you don't want to listen. I tried to be gentle but firm before, as others have...but now in rereading your fist post you want "new" advice which seems to me that people have told you what we have said before, and you refuse to listen.

Take a look at the post by 67stang below- called "New reef tank, fish or corals first?" 67stang has a 200 g tank that he let mature for 5 months and only now is he asking about ***HARDY*** specimens of corals and fish to begin with.

His list is excellent...he has done his homework and has that patience to succeed. jdeets in this thread also will do well.

If we haven't addressed your questions, well, you can't get more indirect than that....so why are you looking for other indirect sources to help you? By indirect, do you want something that doesn't point the finger directly at you? Your problem is that you are not facing the obvious facts, and refusing to answer questions that we have asked to try and help. It is called trouble shooting, and now I am **certain** of what the problem is.

What standard are you considering when rating stocking of the tank? Ammonia and Nitrite should not be "~0" (which I assume is approximately 0) in a tank with plenty of biological filtration.

Your animals will continue to die. You see no signs of why the animals are dying....haven't you ever heard stress is the 'silent' killer? Absolutely irresponsible. Your LFS will love you as their best customer, because you will always have room for more fish. And they will have a bridge to sell soon too....when you walk in it will make their day!

Your tank is most likely OVERSTOCKED right now. It has likely reached its maximum carrying capacity for its age. In addition you are not feeding your fish properly. I hope that you take some SMALL bit of advice from any message in this thread. You will benefit from it.

I pray for the animals in your tank, and the poor one's you will try to shoehorn in there in the future.

Now I understand why so many of the experienced reefers leave these boards. It is so tempting because this sort of story is so very frustrating. These poor fish have to suffer with the same mistakes made over and over year after year, and especially from gross irresponsibility.

Time to go calm down (in front of my tank, or would that make me think of this??). Sorry for the anger expressed in this message, but it is truly sad. 30 fish, dead!!! And more to come!!!

[ July 25, 2001: Message edited by: ophiuroid ]

[ July 25, 2001: Message edited by: ophiuroid ]

 

[JennM]

Well BradB if you happen to get curious and read this...

I won't flame, because IMO that's not constructive.

It's sometimes difficult to admit that we've made bad choices, but I submit that you have done too much too fast, and perhaps more than your tank was ever designed to support.

You mention your 120 has a 600 GPH return. In my opinion as a hobbyist of 15 years, that is not enough flow. My 37 has a return of 500 GPH (plus a skimmer at 200 gph) and a powerhead in the tank moving another 140 gph and that is my "slow current" seahorse tank...I think flow is one issue, but I think there are several issues here, and most of the other posters have touched on them.

If bodies are disappearing, SOMETHING is preying on your fish. Maybe it's not a mantis, maybe it's a hitchiker crab. Bodies just do not disappear, particularly larger ones.

I work in an LFS and I'm appalled that any reputable retailer would sell you this quantity of fish. As mentioned, he may claim he's picky about suppliers, but obviously not picky about his customers. If you were my customer (and I do work at an LFS), when your first fish died, I'd start asking questions, and when your second fish died I'd ask MORE questions. When your third fish died, I'd stop selling to you until we figured out why...And all the while, I'd be testing your water BEFORE sending any fish home. ANY ammonia or nitrite, no fish today. That is how I (and my employer) work. I would probably not have sold you as many specimens at one time, as you've been buying either, but I am only speculating on how many you added at once, by the size of the schools in your tank.

You mentioned that you didn't feel aggession was an issue, but on several specimens you mention that tails are torn, and blame the damsel. Perhaps aggression WAS a mitigating factor?

There are many people here who are more than willing to help you achieve a healthy, thriving reef, but you must be willing to accept that their advice might not agree with what you envision as your 'ideal' reef tank.

Please, before you go seeking the answers that you want to hear...because somebody somewhere will tell you what you WANT to hear in order to sell you something else, consider that the people here have nothing to gain or lose by helping you. They do so because they WANT to, and for love of the animals and the hobby.

Respectfully

Jenn

 

[ronjon]

deaths=cyanide...maybe somethign to consider.


rj

[ July 25, 2001: Message edited by: ronjon ]

 

[Mabu]

Has anybody commented on the 75-80 degree temperature swing? This to me seems pretty hefty. 75 degrees is very cool. I would suspect that a 5 degree temperature difference to 75 would stress the fish pretty seriously.. If it were 5-degrees from 77-82, it might not be so bad IMO. But 75... that's cool... too cool if you ask me...

 

[DaktariEd]

I can't add much to ophiuroid's post...it is right on target.

Let the tank mature. I waited a year before adding more than my original 4 fish.

Please back off on the stocking level and BE PATIENT!

Your fish, your tank, and your wallet will appreciate it!

My 2 cents,

Ed

 

[ophiuroid]

Aaaah....nothing settles a mind like a few beers and pizza...and a few Rolaids.

Agreed. I think that the temp swing is not real good. There are a couple of things that could be improved and/or could have been a factor, eg the circulation, temp regulation, feeding, making sure that the ammonia/nitrite are at 0 not about 0 (which should have been what the LFS was looking into as mentioned above), possible problems with collecting, misc water parameters, aggression, maintenance schedule, water source, predation, etc. I think that there are explanations here and there for why a few fish might die, but I also think that the selection of fish was inappropriate for such a young tank (and stocking level was very heavy, very early, making any little and seemingly insignificant problem blow out of proportion). Some of those fish are tough to keep by themselves in an established tank; mix them up in a young tank and Bam! Big trouble. Plus there is some information that was never provided, so there are potentially other issues going on that could contribute to the losses.

IMO, the LFS should be shut down for letting so many fish/corals out the door so fast. Oh well.

 

[Minh Nguyen]

I got a 400 g tank with 125 g sump. I got 21 fishes in my tank. I consider this the max number of fish. Brad, you really got to consider the growth of your fish.
Regal tang and Clown tang (very mean) are open water tangs. They also get big and are more difficult to care for than yellow tang or purple tang and some of the more common tang. The clown tang should be keep all by himself without other angel or tang in a 120 g tank. 120 g tank may be too small for him when he is larger but not full growth
At 4 months, your tank is not mature. It may have finish the nitrogen cycle, but this is far from mature. The sand bed cannot be mature. If you add live sand, there are many dead animals in the sand that is not fully decomposed yet. If you add dead sand seeded with live sand, there were not enough time for your sand to get colonized yet. It does not mater what you think, your tank is TOO YOUNG. There are other compounds that need to cycle and nutrients get used up before your tank is stable and established. Reading of no nitrate, ammonia and nitrite do not make a mature tank. There are other nutrients to be considered.
Slow down. Don't add any more fish and just try to keep what you have alive.
With the fish you have in the tank and with the new tank, they are stressed both because the unstable chemical/biological environment and because of the interactions between the fishes.
Often in a new tank, experiences reefer recommended to let the algae grew wild unchecked to absorb all the nutrients, then harvest and discarded the algae to rid your tank of the excessive nutrients. Various algae need to cycles thought. Once all the nutrients are gone, your tank is mature and ready for serious reef (and fish keeping)
There are a few things you can use to gage the amount of nutrients in your tank. These nutrients are not really detectable with the test kits we have today for us. In a new tank with adequate light, when the nutrient levels are high, one always needs to clean the front glass panel every few day. If we don't do this, the brown and green algae will grow and obscure view. On the rock, the major algae on them are brown and green algae. The entire exposed surface will be cover with micro algae in a few days. This will not happen in a mature tank. I can have a piece of oyster shell in my tank for weeks if not a month or two and it still white. Often, the first algae that grow in a piece of new rock in a mature tank is coralline algae rather than brown or green non-calcaneous algae.
In my tank, I don't really need to clan the front glass other than every two or three weeks. When I need to clean, it is because the coralline algae start to obscure the view.

I have been there, done that. Please take what I said into consideration. Right now, your tank does not have the optimal environment for more delicate fish. The tank in over crowned. If you don't tank steps to change this, your fish will continue to die and your tank will never mature. You will get out of reef keeping in a year or two if this is the case. You do have a tendency to over stock your tank. Take this into consideration when you make stocking decision. You should not stock fish until the water quality degraded. You should stop long, long before this point. I would venture to guess that you make stocking decision thinking that if nitrated is 0 means you can add more fish. If this is the case, you cannot be more wrong. You got to think about the niches and the behavior of the fish you want to add, and how it will affect the rest of the community in your tank.
Your problem is in the general condition of your tank and your fishes not anything specific that you can change and solve. You need time, patient and intelligent fish removal, and restocking when the appropriate time is what you need. Good luck in solving your problem.

 

[gregt]

It must be the magic fish killing fairy. Seems Brad has ruled everything else out.

 

[Anonymous]

Wow, I mean Wow. I admit I have just skimmed and stayed away. But making Susan the brittlestar queen explode, Brad no-one has ever done that

I know intent is hard to read so let me be clear, I value Susan on this board.

 

[ophiuroid]

No worries, brittlestars and their kin have remarkable powers of regeneration, and those who study them have to as well (they can make your hair fall out, skin break out, etc...so we have to pull ourselves together now and then).

But seeing as this thread in no way involved a brittlestar, or even some starfish....or even an urchin or cucumber, I am rather surprised at my reaction, myself! It does happen now and then though

I hope no poor brittles end up in that tank

Thanks for your kind words!!
How are those new starfish doing?!

-----------------
Brittlestars!! http://home.att.net/~ophiuroid
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[JohnD]

BradB,

Let me jump in here with a few observations. From my complete reading of this post, I feel you started off with a few honest questions. Maybe the type the LFS couldn't answer. This is the place to go for help. I certainly do.

Anyway, some folks that have been in this hobby for a long time and are in fact walking reference books (David, Minh Nguyen and JennM among others) tried to give you some outstanding advice. From your tone, you had all the answers. That is too bad.

The fact that so many fish also died is too bad.

With that out of the way, you and folks like you are my favorite hobbiests. After you have killed everything in your tank, you get discouraged and want to get out of the hobby. That is where I come in. You want to get your "Death Tank" out of the house and I want to help. For pennies on the dollar, of course. I just wish you weren't so far away.

In another month, drop me an e-mail. I'll take your complete system off your hands for $50. Drop me an e-mail.

Too bad all your fish had to die first.

Now that I just finished posted this, I began to think of the lion tamer with the nurse shark and yellow tang in a 75 gallon tank that had been set up for 2 weeks. Let me be the first to say:
TROLL!!!!

What does everyone else think?

[ July 27, 2001: Message edited by: JohnD ]

 

[Dawlfandav]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quoteI work in an LFS and I'm appalled that any reputable retailer would sell you this quantity of fish. As mentioned, he may claim he's picky about

Hay you just sold me 33 fish for my 20 gal just last week.

jk

sorry couldnt resist.