ESV Salt Phosphates Poll

bklynreef

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I'm dedicated to this salt no matter what even with the issue at hand that is fixable. Im stocked with 12 200 gallon boxes That's how much I like this salt and the corals like it.
 

greenstreet.1

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This was told to ESV already on R2R and they replied saying that they will get a company to run some test and they will get back to us.
Still the best salt for me and my reef. I will run a test on my new mix on Sunday but my reef is at zero po4 the last I tested. Salifert.
 

Fourevrloud

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When I talked to them they recommend to use salifert test Hanna testers are not that accurate if the glass tube is not 100% clean if the beam hits a little speck of anything it will through it off mabey not by much but it will
 

prattreef

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Sorry, my bad. Bob sent me the following shortly after Thanksgiving and I totally spaced posting it.

Thanks for informing me about the thread on MR regarding our ESV Salt Mix and phosphate. At ESV we use the HACH DR890 Colorimeter for measuring orthophosphate. The method we use is Method 8048 and is USEPA accepted for wastewater analysis reporting for samples containing 0 to 2.5 mg/L phosphate. This is what many would consider a "high end" colorimeter and allows for calibration and accuracy checking with NIST orthophosphate standards from HACH. To get optimum accuracy and precision, this method requires meticulous technique. Sample vials should be spotless and acid washed. The proper cloth must be used to dry them. Paper towels for example, can leave micro scratches and effect light transmission and therefore results.

To speed up production, we cross reference a HACH PO-19 Color Disc Orthophosphate kit (runs about $100 from Hach) with the DR890 and use that for the bulk of our quality control measurements. I have also determined the Salifert Phosphate kit run with their "higher sensitivity" technique to be acceptably close to the HACH products and use that on my home aquariums. In fact, once below 0.05 ppm, I find the Salifert high sensitivity technique a bit easier than the PO-19 to hone in on very low levels. I haven't evaluated other kits so I can't speak for their accuracy. Given the technique required to get meaningful results with a colorimeter, and the inability for many of them to be calibrated, I generally do not take too seriously the phosphate readings I hear generated from the more "economical" colorimeter devices on the market. I take the readings from the HACH PO-19 and Salifert much more seriously.

Typically batches of our salt range from 0.02 to 0.04 ppm orthophosphate using our test methods. Although we take steps to lower phosphate levels of our liquids, we get a very small contribution from the USP Magnesium Sulfate we supply. I'd hate to have to change our source over a trivial amount of phosphate because of all the positive feedback we've been getting on how corals are responding to the product. Unfortunately earlier in the year (before May) we may have had a batch or two slip through our quality control and fall within the 0.10 to 0.15 ppm range. The source has been identified and corrected. If any aquarist on this thread thinks they have a batch measuring over 0.1 ppm orthophosphate, I would be interested in hearing from you. I'm usually available to take calls (800-846-9449) weekdays between 10:30am and 4:30pm. It would be helpful if before calling you verified any phosphate readings taken with the more economical colorimeters with the Hach PO-19 kit or Salifert and of course the results of your RO/DI water taken with the same kits. I'd also like to know the batch number of the Component B liquid.

If it turns out you did receive one of those higher phosphate batches, I don't think it's a serious problem in the grand scheme of things. The amount of phosphate added to your system via the salt mix would be trivial compared to phosphate entering via feeding. Randy Holmes Farley wrote a great article putting this into perspective:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/3/chemistry.

From the information in that article, one could conclude that doing a 20% water change on a 100 gal aquarium which tested zero for phosphate would only add 0.03 ppm orthophosphate to the system if the new mix tested as high as 0.15 ppm. That phosphate addition would be equivalent to just one days feeding for a lightly fed tank or only one tenth the daily phosphate addition of a more heavily fed system. A newly mixed batch of salt measuring 0.04 ppm would have essentially no significant contribution compared to food input, especially if the aquarium water typically ran at 0.04 ppm. We must also factor in that phosphate input from food is usually a daily occurrence and 20% water changes usually don't occur more than once per week. The big issues with phosphate control, IMO, are input from food vs export efficiency along with possibly identifying an internal "sink" (old undisturbed sandbeds or other areas where detritus can accumulate) which has built up over time and may be at a point of inputting orthophosphate back into the water column.

I hope this sheds some light on this thread and thanks to all of you who support ESV. If you have further questions please feel free to call me. I enjoy talking to fellow aquarists.

Bob Stark

ESV Aquarium Products Inc.
 

Geraud

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I am honestly not sure that for anything "low range" the Salifert and Hach tests are much better than the Hannah egg... in my opinion color tests are good when the indicators go from one color to another (eg titration), not so much when it comes to shades.

Other than that, it looks like there was a known issue. Always completely test the first batch of water you make from a new box of salt, no matter what the brand!
 

bklynreef

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oh ok great, They should have informed us regarding these so called bad batches and made us aware of what was going on instead of us losing corals or racking our brains trying to figure out where the high phosphates were coming from. trust me i starved my fish and fed my corals less to figure that out. A bad batch to an average tank may not be such a big loss but when i buy 20 boxes stocked for the year that is a lot of money, time and labor. Im truly at a loss with words and i would like to know how to tell the old batches from the new. I am not sure if there are dates on these boxes or anything to tell them apart and if a vendor is selling these old batches that should be disclosed as such. I am now stuck with boxes upon boxes of this salt which cost me a ton of money plus now i have to run GFO ( which is not inexpensive either) in to my 200 Gallon saltwater container before i put it in to my system. Seriously, This should have been addressed by ESV to all vendors and forums. ESV should not have waited till we the people found this out on our own. I dont call this good business especially when low PO4 is crucial to our systems. I will still use this salt because i am happy with it even if they didnt fix the problem, but im not so sure i would trust ESV any longer as far as their products go if this is the way they treat us as loyal buyers for decades. Why am i so pissed??? Cause i lost more than money in the Bad salt well in to the $1,000's of dollars. I lost corals due to the PO4 issue. I dont expect them to make me whole cause they can never do that nor would they. What was done was done but they should figure out a way to even up the score for a limited time where they will lose for a certain period of time giving this new clean batches of salt up for a seriously discounted price 50% below their cost. Yes they will lose money for a while on it but they will gain our confidence and respect again. This is the only way a company learns their lesson and doesnt let a so called " Batch or two which could mean thousands of boxes" slip through their quality control. Thank you Pratt for confronting them and everyone for their time, efforts and labor. Now lets get back to work!
 
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Geraud

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Bklynreef, I do not have that under my eyes, but I do remember that they label the bags (I forgot about the bottles) that contain the first and second components (the salts) with the batch number.
 

bklynreef

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I am honestly not sure that for anything "low range" the Salifert and Hach tests are much better than the Hannah egg... in my opinion color tests are good when the indicators go from one color to another (eg titration), not so much when it comes to shades.

Other than that, it looks like there was a known issue. Always completely test the first batch of water you make from a new box of salt, no matter what the brand!

We were getting readings as high as .19 and as low as .12 with hanna, milwaukee and salifert testers and i wasnt testing 100 gallon batches, i was testing the entire 4 part salt in 200 gallon containers at 1.026 which made around 180 gallons give or take. ill take a look and see it theres dates or numbers when i get home but it doesnt really matter at this point. Im stuck with them until i run out cause im not carrying them all up 2 flights of stairs and get cursed out by my UPS guy to ship them back thats for sure.
 
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Geraud

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Well it looks like the liquid "B" is the issue, as was actually detected by vio earlier in the thread. If you only need to get the bottles, the UPS delivery man might not be as mad at you. ;-)

Today I test PO4 all day long, I use Hanna HI 713 (Egg)
Tank (220 Gal. + 90 Gal. sump)
Tank PO4 0.00
RO/DI PO4 0.00 ( 9 stages, one is fill / Rowa + 2 Membrane total 11 Stages)
Make up water on Brute container store for 24H already, PO4 0.00
Mix Sodium Chloride at 77F temp. PO4 0.00 I use Korallia MAG 7
Mix .Magnesium Sulfate test 3 times Po4 0.04,0.02,0.02
Mix. Component A PO4 0.05
Mix. Component B PO4 0.11 test after 25 min. PO4 go 0.12

prattreef said:
Although we take steps to lower phosphate levels of our liquids, we get a very small contribution from the USP Magnesium Sulfate we supply. (...) Unfortunately earlier in the year (before May) we may have had a batch or two slip through our quality control and fall within the 0.10 to 0.15 ppm range. The source has been identified and corrected.(...) I'd also like to know the batch number of the Component B liquid.
 

bklynreef

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Thank g-d for VIO's patience and time with this.
Mix .Magnesium Sulfate test 3 times Po4 0.04,0.02,0.02
Mix. Component A PO4 0.05
Mix. Component B PO4 0.11 test after 25 min. PO4 go 0.12
do the math cause i was getting readings over .19 even.
Mag .04 to say the least or even .02
Comp A .05
Comp B .12
Total .21
ESV should have gave us the bad batch particulars themselves and replaced them for us free of charge at any local store to switch out. now its over and too late in the game. what was lost was lost, time money, labor and effort which they can never pay me back for.
 
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