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grimreefer1

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I checked out ipsf and garf, and both had terrible websites that were almost impossible to navigate. reeftopia seemed to have decent deals on hermit/snail mixes, and free shipping on bigger orders.

What have your experiences been?

I am most interested in reef safe hermits such as the scarlet hermit.
 

pathos

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have you checked Hung Ming on Broadway? How about Lucky Ocean in Oakland? Is it more exciting to receive something via mail? (I have never done it - just wondering)
 

scavdog

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E-tropicals is the best I have seen so far. They have cleanup packages that are more than reasonably priced. In addition to that they offer free shipping on these packages.

Good luck,
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grimreefer1

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Hi Pathos,
I'm not too fond of having live stuff shipped overnight, but it is a LOT cheaper than going to the store - bigger selection, special "packages" etc...

Hung Ming is close to where I work, maybe I will cruise in there this week.
 

BReefCase

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This is just my personal bias showing, but please don't buy one of those big "package deals" that the MO places sell unless you have experience with all the species included, and would buy the same quantity of the same animals separately. Except for the small price advantage packages offer, you can get a much more diverse, useful, and survivable mix of inverts by shopping separately.

Despite their annoying run-on website, an IPSF "9 for $99" special is a good start if you select all the snails, hermits, worms, and Strombus that are offered, and especially if you add their pricey but otherwise great mini-stars. (If you search on my previous posts, you'll find a mini-review I wrote of my IPSF package.) For other additional useful snails like Nassarius, Cerith, and Margarita Nerites, and for reef-safe hermits like scarlets and black-and-whites (plus the all-important extra grow-out shells), you can't beat Premium Aquatics. PA has other appropriate inverts too.

Now for my rant: I may be alone in this, but I think "clean-up crews" and "janitor packages" are a bad idea, and one that the reef hobby needs to seriously rethink. They are a tool that MO places use to sell lots of inverts, but they don't do reefers, especially newbies, any favors (except maybe on price). My objections to packages are:

Too many critters recommended for too small tanks -- 3 or 4 snails and hermits per gallon may seem like a good idea when your tank is new and blooming diatoms and hair algae, but what is the "crew" going to eat 6 months down the line in a clean, mature tank?

Wrong species - MO places push Astrea snails without warning newbies that they can't right themselves without help. They include aggressive species of hermits without giving the new reefer any extra, larger grow-out shells, and then when the hermits kill the snails for shells, they sell the reefer more snails. They include sand-sifting starfish without warning the buyer that these can sterilize all the life in the DSB (especially a newly established one) of a small or medium tank in short order. They include small green serpent stars that grow into large, capable predators of everything including even fish. The list goes on and on.

Too little diversity - Trochus snails are great snails, and I wouldn't do without them, but they are BIG snails that can't get to a lot of places in the tank. (Same goes for Turbos.) They need to be combined with small grazers like Strombus for the nooks and crannies, Cerith snails for the sand line, Nassarius for scavenging, and etc. Hermit crabs too - different kinds eat different things in different parts of the tank, at different times of the day and night. Most places don't include worms or other detritavores, since the idea of janitor packages pre-dates DSBs. 50 Turbos and 50 hermits in a 55 gallon tank is not my idea of the right mix.

Wrong attitude - labeling critters as "cleanup crews" and "janitors" encourages new hobbyists to consider snails and hermits to be part of the tank hardware, almost like a filter or a skimmer, instead of as livestock that have particular needs and life cycles of their own.

It may be unreasonable to expect MO companies to tell the package buyer everything they need to know about reefing with each purchase, but I feel the MO places have a special responsibility with "janitor packages" and "cleanup crews," because the MO place is choosing the livestock mix, and because these packages are aimed at being he first purchase a newbie reefer makes for the new tank.

grimreefer - I hope this didn't come off as sounding obnoxious, as yours is a perfectly reasonable question, and I know you weren't expecting anyone to unload on it like this!
Sorry for the long rant....
 

BReefCase

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[Duplicate, unintentional post -- d**n Browser back button!]

[ July 18, 2001: Message edited by: BReefCase ]
 

BReefCase

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You made me laugh, Steve.
You made me laugh, Steve.

I know the owners of some of the MO places read this board, and I'd like to hear their response to my "janitor package" criticism.

I can appreciate that there may be very real marketing and business economics reasons behind the package deals. Do customers expect/insist on these packages? Or is it just a traditional product that MO places offer?
 

hectina

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I agree with BReefCase. I purchased my cleaners individually. I purchase every creature when the need arose. Had I purchased a package, I would have had a fish tank full of Chioppino (too many creatures for the amount of food). I am way blow the recomended amounts of inverts, but everyone is happy, and noone has died.

Another thing not mentioned is the fact that these janitor packages will outcompete the detriovores that hitchhike on your rock. these are a free source of cleaners that many forget. For example, I have dwarf serpent stars that are reproducing like mad, sand burrowing snails, amphipods, and several species of algae eating limpets and snails.

I have more variety, and actually saved money by not purchasing a janitor package.
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gr_reefer

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i ordered some peppermint shrimp from etropicals.com last week, and i was impressed by the service, and the package arived to my door, in like 16 hours. everything was cool, and then the next morning, i came into the room with all of my tanks, and i looked in the quarintine tank, and they were all dead! everything checked out good as far as water quality goes. i dont know if they were stressed from shipping, or what, but i e-mailed them, and i have gotten no response, close to a week later. i am setting up a 125g right now, and i was just getting ready to order a lot of livestock from there, but now i am reconsidering. i am not saying this to bash them in any way, i just was wondering if anyone else has had this, as i am puzzled, and just want the situation to be made right. any thoughts?
 

wasabi

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i had great succces with my order from e tropicals, packaged great and everyting is still alive 2 months later. i ordered a very large package.shrimp have been a hit or miss thing in my tank even after very slow acclimation, 6 hours or so. i have a zero survival rate after 2 weeks. i dont know if its the shrimp or my tank. everything else thrives.ive tried 4 shrimp now all cleaners i'm leaving the shrimp out of my reef for now.
 

BReefCase

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You make an EXCELLENT point, hectina.

There are way, way many more types of beneficial and interesting inverts that are viable and valuable in the reef tank than what suppliers commonly sell in these pre-packaged "cleaner crews."

Right now, the only way to get these critters for our reef tanks is to have them come in by chance as hitchhikers, or by trading them informally with other reefers. They are not available commercially -- yet. That should be made to change.

My long-term hope is that, as DSBs become more common, as commercial aquaculture methods improve, and as reefers like us become more sophisticated and demanding of our livestock suppliers, the variety of creatures available to us will expand well beyond the one-size-fits-all, turbos-and-hermits cleaner packages traditionally available.

We have to start questioning what is stocked by MO places and pushing them to compete on variety, not just on price. When was the last time you found some new species for sale that surprised you?

There are very few MO companies that push the envelope, and we should reward those that do. Where would we be without upstart suppliers like IPSF and Inland Aquatics? We wouldn't even have bristle worms, spaghetti worms, mini-stars and 'pods available commercially.
 

JDT

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I will be the first MO to make a response to what has been discussed, but first I want to apologize here on this board to jason m. for not responding to his email dated 7-16-01. I have now responded to his email, after reading here that he had not heard back from us, and am now working with him to rectify the problem he had with his shipment. I had 104 emails when I came into work this past Monday which is a very busy day with shipments coming in and going out and for some reason Jason's was the only one I did not answer!

Now to the discussion of janitor or cleanup packages, in a way I do agree with what has been said, since the start of tanks with DSD some of these creatures will do more harm then good, but I don't necessarly agree with DSD's but that is a personal conclusion, in all the years I have been doing this there have been many "new things" that have helped greatly and some that cause more problems and confusion, my own tank does very well with a 2 inch sand bed and has been that way for 5 years. If care is used in ordering a package that fits the size tank that you have there are many benifits to what is in those packages, now putting a 100 gallon package into a 20 gallon tank is plain STUPID. Most times when I take orders for packages I am asked if this is the right size for the size tank it will be put in and on the website the tank size for the package is listed. More then enough has been written about Astrea Snails but yet some experts still pick them as the best snail to put in your tank and for many the cost to replace them is cheaper then other snails on the market. I have gotten calls from different parts of the country where LFS charge $3.50-$4.00 for these snails not to mention what is charged for Scarlet Reef and Blueleg Hermit crabs, this is another reason why MO companies sell these packages besides the fact that as long as there is a demand for these packages we will always sell them! We also have the Cerith Snails and have just received farm raised Queen Conchs, and will be getting farmed raised Trochus snails by this fall, for now we are trying to have our supplier get us enough of the Tiger Trochus to fill in until the farm raised ones are available. At that time if customers want to use any of these snails instead of the Astrea snails in there package we will be glad to make the change. Because of the new popularity of DSD's,we are also in the process of locating enough sources for things like bristle worms, spaghetti worms, mini-stars and pods and when available will be offered by eTropicals in DSD packages.

The best thing that has happend in this industry are the bulletin boards, they are full of useful and unfortunately sometimes useless information that the average reefer has to decide for himself on what is right or wrong or what he or she wants to do in there tank, I am always available to answer questions for anyone who calls in, if I have the time that is, if not I will ask them to email me and 99.9% of the time, except in your case Jason, I will answer those emails on the same day.

Jack
eTropicals.com

Last point to make as a MO business, we sell what the customer wants, just like any other business who offer a service or product. The people who tell us what they want are you the customers, and as long as the need for things is there we will continue to sell them, so guess what, some of the blame is on your shoulders!

Thanks
Jack
eTropicals.com

PS. I stated in the first sentence that I would be the first MO to respond, this might not be the case as I started writing this at 4 pm EST it is now 5:52 pm.
 

Snook65

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Question for BReefCase. I have a brank new 120 setup that I will be adding liverock into next week. What would your breakdown of different "cleanup" critters be for this size tank. Thanks
 

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