<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by esmithiii:
<STRONG>ophiuroid:
Have you never bought collected specimines? I think the point is that many people on this board consistently take "the moral high ground" and spout off rhetoric about ethical practices when they themselves have lost fish to negligence, buy fish from sources that loose 50-80% of the fish/inverts taken from the natural habitat.
Outraged or not, if you buy fish/inverts or even dry goods from a source that collects wild specimines then you too are no better than the poor soul who lost 30 fish (just more "enlightened.")
This is not a flame. I am not speaking to ophiuroid singly, but responding to her comments.
This board is about sharing information, not debating ethics. The phrase "you can catch more flys with honey than with vinager" is apropo. Many people are turned off when we give advice using smug language laced with overtones of moral superiority. Be kind and gentle when giving advice to someone who probably doesn't know better. Don't use this forum to remind everyone how much you care about the ethical/humane treatment of fish!
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I have explained my point of view on this a few times, and now I will do it again.
- Yes, I have bought wild caught specimens, and I learn about them to the best of my ability before hand, not relying solely on the LFS. Frankly, I am far better off than the person who lost the 30 fish, because they would never have come home with me. The tank was unsuitable, and the fish were unsuitable.
- It is the responsibility of someone, who is buying wild caught specimens, to prepare a proper environment for them. Sorry if you don't want to hear it, this is just being responsible.
- If I have a fish dies, that happens...two fish die and I wonder what's going on, three fish die and I really start to panic. I do not continue to add fish to the system, one after another, each dying in turn. It is irresponsible, if not attempt is made to determine the problem. It is not an acceptable part of the learning curve. These are mistakes that were made decades ago that do not need to be made now, because we understand more about the various technical and biological limitations of our tanks and their maturation. We are not talking about one or two fish dying in a tank, we are talking about 30 in a few months...that is the sort of statistic I am outraged over, just as I am with losses from poor collecting/poor transport/poor LFS conditions.
- Do you know where I shop?
- In the thread in question, I think you will find that there were "kind and gentle" replies and definite attempts to help the situation. There comes a point when that doesn't work any longer, and frustration sets in.
- Frankly, there are many, many animals that folks here keep that I think should no longer be available, because of extraordinarily low survival rates, or bad reputations in captivity.
- There are many, many who spout off about conditions in the LFS, and don't do much to improve the situations in their own tanks.
- Anyone who does any background reading, searches or asks questions on this board is already far above the learning curve in this hobby, and deserves that resepct. Regardless of their question, they should not be called idiots, fools, or cursed at. As I have said before, it is those who do not listen to varied advice that I grow frustrated with- those that ask, but already know the answer they want. I do not jump into threads on tangs and talk about tank size, or otherwise take the high ground when it comes to equipment or stocking (unless it is to defend a brittlestar, which I am sure you can understand, as I have studied them for most of my adult life...one gets a tad bit passionate about them!).
- It is difficult for many to separate ethics/morals from the experiences, because their ethics/morals have been the basis for the construction of their tanks, stocking, etc. For people to leave it out of their replies, when it has so clearly molded their experience, is virtually impossible. I am always considering the welfare of these animals...very sorry...it is my moral point of view. I strongly believe that improvements must be demanded in the capture of these animals, and expect high standards in their keeping. If I see a slack LFS, with tanks full of crud and sick fish, I do not shop there, fish or otherwise. If you do not share this view as passionately, fine...that is your moral perspective thrown at me.
- I am sorry, I am a firm believer in responsibility....if you do your homework, have the proper tank, food and tankmates, shop reputable LFS's (it helps to know about the fish beforehand...if they try to push lots of fish or corals on you at once, don't have a good warranty, and in short will sell you anything, then be wary), etc, then great (even if the fish dies). You have been a responsible reefkeeper, you've done your best, and that is all I ask from my pedestal.
If you lack the patience, then you are in the wrong hobby, and I will say that outright. Moral high ground or not...impatience is not a good personality trait in this hobby.
The overwhelming majority of fish collected for this hobby die, and their odds should *increase* when sent to their final destination, IMO...and I don't mean the trash!
I hope that is what we all hope, regardless of how we try to make that point. I do expect people to be curteous, regardless of differences in opinion.
