Secret Suppliers

[Ret_Talbot]

I believe most of the replies on this board are referring to US wholesalers and the majority of retailers in the current market do not deal directly with suppliers in developing countries/island nations.

Hey, Erik.

I agree that many of the responses on this thread have been referring to US wholesalers and that many retailers do not go direct to suppliers. Nonetheless, as I'm sure you are aware, some retailers do go direct. I am most interested in discussing the pros and cons of either party--a retailer or a wholesaler (or a transhipper for that matter)--keeping a supplier "secret" versus actively and tranparently promoting the best supliers.

 

[AquaErik]

I guess what I am trying to say here is that the idea of "Secret suppliers" is not really a valid issue when you are talking about any volume that actually matters.

You are assuming that there are overseas suppliers in developing countries that are looking for more ways to move their specimens but wholesalers/retailers cannot find them? Many times the demand of a good supplier overseas outweighs the supply they can send on a regular basis. Most of these overseas suppliers can only handle 1 or 2 major wholesalers and because of ethics they usually do not supply multiple vendors in the same city. All the major Wholesalers on the west coast know the majority of their competitions sources their is no secrecy in that. What must be understood is the amount of time, money, effort, and work that goes into developing a good supplier in whichever country you are dealing with. Most overseas suppliers become good or great suppliers by the backing of whatever wholesaler they are working with for many years.

The idea that there is some poor starving supplier that is sitting on a ton of stock and if they could only find a place to sell their livestock then everything would be great, is not valid. They all have computers, phones, direct contact with numerous people in our industry all over the world on a regular basis. There are only a hand full of overseas suppliers in most areas you would consider developing countries/island nations and that is not going to change. If they wanted to offer their product to other sources they can, but why would they risk the chance of losing their current customers that helped them become a good supplier from the start. There is a vested interest with both parties to keep each other happy and if things are going well then neither side would need to look elsewhere.

"Secret suppliers" may be a good sales tactic for a retailer or way to explain some exceptional shipments that arrived but when it comes to large volume of supply on a regular basis there are no secrets out there.

 

[Ret_Talbot]

You are assuming that there are overseas suppliers in developing countries that are looking for more ways to move their specimens but wholesalers/retailers cannot find them? Many times the demand of a good supplier overseas outweighs the supply they can send on a regular basis. Most of these overseas suppliers can only handle 1 or 2 major wholesalers and because of ethics they usually do not supply multiple vendors in the same city. All the major Wholesalers on the west coast know the majority of their competitions sources their is no secrecy in that.

I am not under the illusion that there is some supplier sitting on a ton of coral that he or she just can't move, and, having traveled much of the developing world, I am well aware that access to the Internet and markets is pervasive, even in some very remote places. As you suggest, there are of course the big wholesalers who have invested time and resources in developing their suppliers in a manner consistent with principles of fair trade, and they may even have an exclusive, mutually beneficial, relatively trasparent relationship with their suppliers. That's great. I think the industry would be all the better for money being invested in good suppliers intent on developing sustainable and self-sufficient businesses that can serve the demand. I'm sure we both could list a number of examples of this sort of relationship, but I am only interested in these insofar as they are examples of how the marine aquarium industry can have a positive impact on the socioeconomics of the developing world.

The other side, and admittedly it may be a much smaller percentage in terms of overall volume, is the suppliers who don't have the stability of investors and all that comes with that (business planning, marketing, etc.) but who do have access to livestock and markets, even if those markets are not the A-list. I'm sure some people will disagree strongly, but personally, I would like to see all but the largest, most respected retailers working through the established A-list wholesalers in a transparent fashion. Retail, as we all know, is a whole different ball game than wholesale with enough daily distractions to make truly investing in a relationship with a small supplier thousands of miles away little more than a pipe dream...but I digress.

As we all know, there are suppliers out there that are unethical, but which also have the ability to bring stunning products to market regardless of the cost to the environment or the collectors. Given some of the allegations levied against these suppliers (up to and including responsibility for the death of their collectors), I think we can all understand why a wholesaler, transhipper or retailer dealing with that supplier would want to keep the supplier's identity a secret even as they continue to use them.

Obviously not every "secret supplier" is a bandit engaged in unethical and illegal practices, and, more often than not, talk of a secret supplier is little more than a marketing device. I would disagree, however, that it is, as you said, "a good sales tactic," and I suppose that is the big-picture, take-home point of my article in its present form. Playing the secrecy card is, in just about every situation of which I can think, bad for the industry. To me, it sends the wrong message to hobbyists about the way the industry does business, it has the potential to breed distrust amongst colleagues and, given the air time allotted to seizures and environmental degradation resulting from the trade, it gives those looking to regulate the industry out of existence one more piece of ammunition.

So there are my somewhat disjointed, incoherent thoughts on a Saturday afternoon. I appreciate your willingness to engage in this dialog, Erik (and others), and I look forward to continuing it, as I think we all have the same ends in mind: a robust and sustainable industry.

Cheers!

 

[SlipperMan]

They all have computers, phones, direct contact with numerous people in our industry all over the world on a regular basis.

Tell me about it. I posted a wholesaler wanted ad a couple months ago, and got 5-7 export companies e-mailing me within a couple days.

 

[swsaltwater]

I have scuba divers direct and i guess that is somewhat secret, as well as a few transhippers I am with that usually only sell to wholesalers.

Route 66 Marine has some sweet corals, no secret though they are starting to market more and more. High dollar items and want larger orders to get the cream of the crop. I would like to see them get more bread and butter since high dollar makes the store look nice but people won't pay for that stuff in this economy. By far the nicest corals I have seen in LA.

Quality usually has the best fish. I tend to stick to them and PAF for fish now along with a few transhipers.

Pacific Aqua is solid on most corals as well maybe a shade behind Route 66 but that cause they get the common stuff as well that Route 66 seems to avoid. But you get a few high dollars with the normal bread and butter that sells.

 

[JeremyR]

I"ve had this conversation with JennM before, and I found her responses somewhat amusing. Yes, if I have a fantastic source for something that nobody else happens to carry in the area, I'm not going to tell the LOCAL stores where I'm buying. First, you have the bizness bit.. 2nd.. they all suck, and can barely keep fish & corals alive, have no ethics.. they shouldn't even be in business, why should I help them out? Does someone who keeps 8 yellow tangs covered in ich in a 20 gallon tank deserve any assistance at all?

The disconnect I had with Jenn was in sharing good suppliers with stores that you know are ethical and 2000 miles away.. they aren't competitors, and there isn't so little in your sources tanks that you are going to get screwed on "cherry" items because one more store orders. There are so many bogus wholesalers out there that I think we should be willing to help non-regional ethical dealers out, regardless if it took us 10 years to figure out where to buy. If someone opens up down the street from me, and they are ethical.. I'm still not going to tell them squat because I was here first Won't happen tho.. There are probably only a couple dozen stores in the entire country that actually try to do things right.. 90% don't even know where their fish come from, or that there are any problems related to how they are collected, shipped, etc.

 

[JeremyR]

Btw, this reminds me of something else... I was trying to find a source for that clear plastic netting people use to make frame covers for their tanks to keep the fish from jumping as an alternative to egg-crate. The 50 page thread on RC was very amusing, all the people who had sourced it wouldn't tell anyone where they got it, because they had leftover they were trying to sell themselves. Hobbyists won't even help each other out

 

[Anonymous]

Btw, this reminds me of something else... I was trying to find a source for that clear plastic netting people use to make frame covers for their tanks to keep the fish from jumping as an alternative to egg-crate. The 50 page thread on RC was very amusing, all the people who had sourced it wouldn't tell anyone where they got it, because they had leftover they were trying to sell themselves. Hobbyists won't even help each other out

I think you missed my post on that thread giving the link to where to get it and the product code

 

[Anonymous]

I hear people round these parts not wanting to tell anyone anything even far away people because then the supply will 'watered' down or spread out meaning less for them.

I don't like secrets where collection of animals is involved because it makes it too easy to hide bad practices.

 

[Anonymous]

Aren't you supposed to be working?

 

[JeremyR]

I did see it gresham, but I had to wade thru a few pages of crap to find it.. I just found it amusing that the hobbyists who knew wouldn't tell anyone where they had found it.

 

[aquaticvet1]

If, according to Jeremy, there are only a couple of dozen LFS across the country who actually do things right, why not post those names? That would be the most valuable list for the consumers and drive business to the quality suppliers ---right up the line. IMO , some tend to start at the wrong end.

I think it would be valuable for the hobby to know which " twenty four " local fish stores make Jeremy's list. If there is not a " Jeremy approved " LFS close by, the hobbyist can always utilize the quality online sources, whoever they are.

 

[Ret_Talbot]

I hear people round these parts not wanting to tell anyone anything even far away people because then the supply will 'watered' down or spread out meaning less for them.

I don't like secrets where collection of animals is involved because it makes it too easy to hide bad practices.

That's pretty much my sentiment in the article--too much is at stake considering the animals, the ecosystems from which they originate and the socioeconomic well-being of the suppliers to play the secret card in the name of a better bottom line. While the individual business may benefit through marketing their product in this way, I think it's bad for the longterm health of the industry.

And just a refresher: I'm really talking about secret suppliers, as in those suppliers in the country of origin--not secret wholesalers (although I find the latter hard to imagine). I'm also most interested in those suppliers that are NOT the ones that are already supplying the major wholesalers in L.A. in a relatively transparent relationship.

 

[Fish_dave]

I guess that I will jump into the discussion here. At the wholesale level I don't think that there is much of the secret supplier thing going on. I know who my fellow wholesalers buy from and I am sure that they are pretty aware of who I buy from. It is not really secret after all, the import documents that we all have to fill out are public record. If I want to know who is shipping to whom I just need to ask the right source.

While there are really no secret suppliers there are many "exclusive" suppliers. We all try to cultivate relationships with our suppliers that will keep them exclusive to us. This works out with some suppliers and not with others. Many of the small "boutique" suppliers this works out well with, they have limited supply on their end and one wholesaler per major market will take all of the supply they have. Examples of this would be Quality's Fiji supplier, SDC's Marshall island supplier, or PAF's conspic angel supplier. We all know who the supplier is but have exclusive agreements with them so that their product stays exclusive to us. Of course other suppliers pop up in these areas so the animals are often not exclusive but the best suppliers tend to get locked into certain buyers. Quality Marine has probably taken it the furthest with the bulk of their supply coming from suppliers exclusive to them in the L.A. market.

The only "secret suppliers" that I know of are the garage and hobbist operations that are sumggling in rare and unusual corals with false or no documents. Not much public record on smuggled animals.

Dave

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Dave,

I think part of the issue on the hobby side is the clandestine feelings some stores give off when asked where they get their animals from. Many of them, at least around here, seem very uncomfortable discussing it prolly for many of the reasons already expressed in this thread.

Another part of it is, of course, the nature of any wholesale/retail model which is heightened by more wholesalers selling direct to hobbyists either above board or on the down low.

 

[Twisted1]

So when you are talking wholesalers, you are talking country of origin wholesalers? Or transshippers on the DL? Certainly the major wholesalers here in Southern California are no secret.

I was refering to Us wholesalers. And I think you might be suprised how many wholesalers don't get as much bussiness as they could if people were not so tight lipped.
In Southern California most of the "stores" and I use that term loosely since some are online stores. Cherry pick shipments comming into the wholesalers on the day they get them, due to the fact that they are local, and that they have "friends" in the wholesalers they get the better product.

This is the rumor I hear anyways, and this is the reason that most people I talk to claim that I can not get exceptional products in the far northern California area.
Wheter this is true or not I couldn't tell you, but I know for a fact that one of my previous suppliers would ship me nothing but bread and butter items, and not inform me of anything of high quality for a long time, while other stores that I talked to quite often were getting some nice stuff.

But sorry, if this isn't about Us wholesalers my rant means nothing. If this is about actualy point of harvest suppliers, I know nothing, I have never had the experience of dealing with them, everyone make it sound overly complicated, and most store owners will tell you it's a waste of time due to the losses, and the shipping.
I was also told that most stuff comes in brown and has to color up under you systems lighting before you know what it is.
My current store isn't set up to house anything for that kind of time frame. So I haven't pursued it too much.

Can someone let me know how misinformed I am...via PM, e-mail, reply here, doesn't matter. I would just like to know how far astray I have been led by other store owners, that I considered knowledgeble, and friendly.

 

[Anonymous]

I've run into this with a one FW wholesalers that deal only with us in North America (99 percent of their business is Europe and Japan, Americans are too cheap for rare FW fish?). Their fish are fantastic though (mostly SA, with a smattering of Westies).

For SW I've talked to a fair number of owners of other stores and most get their stuff from same places we do. Its luck of the draw some places, good shipment one week, mediocre nex.t

How does one recruit a jobber if you live outside the LA or FL area and would it be something you can do on an as needed basis? What are their fee structures typically?

 

[Ret_Talbot]

Speaking of secret suppliers, "Gunther Wenzek, a German national, was arraigned today in U.S. District Court in Alexandria, Va., on a nine count indictment charging him with three felony counts of smuggling protected coral into the United States port of Portland, Ore., three felony counts of violating the Lacey Act and three misdemeanor charges of violating the Endangered Species Act, the Justice Department announced. Wenzek appeared today [Friday 13 Feb. 2009] before U.S. Magistrate Judge T. Rawles Jones, Jr. of the Eastern District of Virginia."

Full release: http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayRelea ... 313&EDATE=

 

[Anonymous]

Speaking of secret suppliers, "Gunther Wenzek, a German national, was arraigned today in U.S. District Court in Alexandria, Va., on a nine count indictment charging him with three felony counts of smuggling protected coral into the United States port of Portland, Ore., three felony counts of violating the Lacey Act and three misdemeanor charges of violating the Endangered Species Act, the Justice Department announced. Wenzek appeared today [Friday 13 Feb. 2009] before U.S. Magistrate Judge T. Rawles Jones, Jr. of the Eastern District of Virginia."

Full release: http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayRelea ... 313&EDATE=

Calcium reactor media, not live coral (just to be clear)



http://www.oregonlive.com/news/orego...930.xml&coll=7

 

[Ret_Talbot]

Speaking of secret suppliers, "Gunther Wenzek, a German national, was arraigned today in U.S. District Court in Alexandria, Va., on a nine count indictment charging him with three felony counts of smuggling protected coral into the United States port of Portland, Ore., three felony counts of violating the Lacey Act and three misdemeanor charges of violating the Endangered Species Act, the Justice Department announced. Wenzek appeared today [Friday 13 Feb. 2009] before U.S. Magistrate Judge T. Rawles Jones, Jr. of the Eastern District of Virginia."

Full release: http://news.prnewswire.com/DisplayRelea ... 313&EDATE=

Calcium reactor media, not live coral (just to be clear)



http://www.oregonlive.com/news/orego...930.xml&coll=7

I was wondering about, as that OregonLive article is so off in many ways. Was it all dead coral? I have not followed the case myself--it was just forwarded to me.