Canister filters vs Sumps

[coral_beauty]

Ooops, sorry about the double post back there

Thanks for the advice on looking around for more than one LFS but I think I have found them all already. There are 3 within 30km (about 18.5 miles) of my house, and this one is hands down the best. There are a few a bit further abroad that look really good, but they're not all that practical if I wanna buy livestock from them, so I tend not to go (over an hr's driving time). I think I will start making a bit more of an effort though.

What are the right janitors? I have several snail-looking things (they were in there when i bought my tank) and a very healthy brittle star population (i also have no idea how they got in there) and various other worms etc. Do I need to buy some specific janitors like shrimp? What do you all think about urchins as algae eaters?

I'm a big fan of running chemical filtration in the form of carbon, mainly because I keep both soft and hard corals in a relatively confined space.

As for overflow boxes, even with the hang on back (HOB) variety, there is at least one that claims you will never lose a siphon, and after seeing the genius of the design (and owning one for almost a year now), I believe it. They're called Lifereef prefilter boxes (http://www.lifereef.com/siphon.html). They're a bit pricey, but well worth the investment.

I always thought there was no point running carbon in a marine tank considering that it strips trace elements out of the water (even the ones you want in there)?

BTW thanks for the link to the overflow box, looks like a great little piece of equipment!

I do have one more question though (sorry to be a pest) but if I remove my filter and just have a sump, how do I know whether my skimmer is doing a good enough job or not? It was pretty cheap (all I could afford at the time) and doesnt seem to collect much stuff. That being said, the bio-load in mytank is rather small, only having 3 fish and a few corals and inverts.

 

[mr_X]

urchins will strip the live rock of any coralline. if you like the look or coralline, i'd say no.
some snails would be ideal, and shrimp(i'm referring to skunk cleaner shrimp) are good at "cleaning up" after your fish, and even cleaning your fish. they are an interesting addition to a reef.

have you ever been to someone's house and their salt tank smelled like the bay in mid summer? an, atleast occasional, carbon maintenance program would correct this.

carbon is not bad for your tank unless you are the type of person who wants to avoid water changes and hope that a skimmer and carbon will replace the need for them.
i passively run carbon in my tank( a mesh bag in a low flow area of the sump), and i add no suppliments. i do a 15% water change per week.
my corals do very well.

you'll really never know if your skimmer is doing a "good job", except for viewing the collection cup and seeing the amount of skimmate it produces, and by testing your water and measuring ammonia/nitrite/nitrate.

btw, i have seen knock off overflow boxes exactly like that one for half the price. same engineering, just a different name. do a google search.

 

[Anonymous]

when i was starting up my tank i was going to use a cannister filter and just have a FOWLR set up. I did alot of reading and asked possibly to many questions. In the end i have had my tank drilled and a sump underneath the tank, i keep all the equipment in the tank. I have 2 heaters, my skimmer, phosphate reactor and UV steriliser. I have bio-balls in the sump, i have about 3-inches of filterwool over them to filter the crap out. I change this every week. Having a sump is so much easier, i used a cannister filter on my FW and the sump is so much easier for maintence. If you don't use a sump were have you placed all your equipment? Is it easy to access?

 

[coral_beauty]

Thanks for all the tips mr_X!

I do like the look of coralline, although I dont have that much. Any way to encourage it?

My skimmer doesn't produce all that much skimmate, but I think its doing a good job. All ammonia/nitrate/nitrate tests v. low. Oh and thanks for letting me know about the overflow boxes, I'll definately have a look aorund if I decide to go down that path (which I'm leaning towards, u guys make a very convincing argument!).

Having a sump is so much easier, i used a cannister filter on my FW and the sump is so much easier for maintence. If you don't use a sump were have you placed all your equipment? Is it easy to access?

I'm starting to see this is the case with regards to the maintenance - I cleaned my canister again today, what a nightmare! Its an old canister as well so it doesnt have individual baskets for the media or anything. I also got it with my tank and it came with no instructions, but I'm getting the hang of it. What mainteneance needs to be done on a sump?

BTW all my equipment is pretty much in the tank. heater and power heads int he tank, skimmer hangs off the back. Canister and chiller underneath the cabinet. I dont have a UV steriliser or phosphate reactor so no need for space for them - although a phosphate filter would be nice. I always though a UV steriliser could be a bad thing on a reef tankbecause it might kill plankton etc in the water? I dont know how they work so this could be seriously misguided though.

So am I right in thinking that if you run a sump you have no filtration other than your skimmer and ur live rock/sand? And why are wet/dry filters bad?

 

[mr_X]

yes to the sump question, except if you have a sump with refugium, which is what i have. then you also have the filtration of the macroalgae.

wet dry filters are not bad, unless you are using live rock as biological filtration. the bio balls in a wet dry act as the host for beneficial bacteria, and if you have live rock in your tank already doing that, i think the bio balls end up collecting too much and turning toxic. they will start producing nitrate instead of helping. - i'm pretty sure that's how it works. if you are to do a fish only tank, then you can use a wet/dry and have success.

 

[Anonymous]

I got a UV filter as i have a tang in my tank and i am going to get a powder blue in a few months. The UV does kill anything biological that passes through it, the pros outweigh the cons. I add 1 ml of plankton every night(nanochloropsis). The phophate reactor is good but it is used on top of water changes. As long as you use it in this way it is beneficial. I would like to have a fuge in the future when i upgrade to a bigger tank.

 

[coral_beauty]

This might sound like a dumb question but why do u need a UV steriliser to keep tangs? I thought they ate algae and would benefit from having it in the tank?

Well I think I'm clear on the whole canister vs sump thing now, thank you all for your help!

 

[mr_X]

you don't NEED a uv sterilizer to keep tangs.
tangs eat algae, but the uv sterilizer will kill what's in the water, not what's on the glass, rock, ....
i don't use a uv sterilizer, and i don't have any trouble with green water :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

You don't need a steriliser but it is a good precaution. I only have one as i am planning to get a powder blue in a few months time when my tank is more mature. They reduce the parasitic load in the tank, as tangs have a thinner coating of the protective coating of slime it helps. The steriliser does not control the algea within the tank.

 

[mr_X]

i have kept 4 tangs in this tank and never used a uv sterilizer. maybe, if you buy healthy tangs from the beginning, and QT them for a few when you get them, which is a good practice for any new livestock, you'll be ok. :wink:

 

[IslandCrow]

Carbon does not strip beneficial trace elements from the water. This isn't my opinion by the way, but the opinion of many other reef keeping experts with backgrounds in chemistry.

It still seems like we're somewhat on the debate of whether a canister filter is better than a sump. Is it just me, or does anyone else feel that question is moot? A canister filter does not take the place of a sump, and a sump is not specifically for filtration. You can put filters and filter media in a sump, but it's basically just another reservoir for water attached to your main system. I don't know if people are equating sumps to protein skimmers, since that's where most people put their skimmer, but even if you don't have a sump, a HOB skimmer is a real good idea. A canister filter will not fulfill that roll.

 

[Anonymous]

The guy only buys healthy fish, when you order a fish it can take weeks as he doesn't like the look of them. As powder blues are prone to itch it is a good idea, i would not have got one if i was not going to get this fish, i would rather be safe than sorry. I like to prepare for the worst then everything else is a bonus.

My sump is designed mainly for filtration, were the water enters the sump it passes though the first section which contains bio-balls,it then enters the second section which has the skimmer and the pump for the phosphate reactor. There is then a section that is filled with about 4 inches of gravel, the water then enters were the pump is housed, this holds my heaters and the pump supplying my UV steriliser. I would say that my sump is designed firstly for filtration. When i get a bigger tank in the future i would get a larger sump so that i have a greater volume of water.

 

[jumpincactus]

If you were to survey the old salts(reefers that have kept reefs for years) and relativly new salts I am positive you will find that 95% of successful reefers keep sumps. Sumps as stated before are a great way to increase water volume. The larger the volume of water the more time it takes for any out of wack water paramenters to really affect your system.

Sumps are also used for refugiums to cultivate macroalgae like Chaeto. This is a great macro to assist in phosphate uptake. Prune it occasionally and either throw away or sell back or trade to your fellow reefers or trade for store credit. Fuges are a great place for copepods to live and breed in. They are the main staple for Mandarin fish. They have a high mortality rate in tanks that dont have a healthy pod population.

The sump houses skimmers and keeps them out of sight along with any chemical filtration or additives you might want to use. Carbon, Rowaphos,etc. The sump is also a good place to add any additves you may want to use such as Kalkwasser, calcium or alkalinity additives.
If you are really leaning toward stony corals,such as SPS.Acros,millies,monti's you would probably go with a sump. If you are going predomintly fish and some softies you can get by with a canister filter. Softies prefer more nutrient rich water and do well in dirtier water. SPS on the other hand seem to do well with more nutrient free water.If you run a canister filter remember to clean it at least once a month or more often. You mentioned having to top off a sump, well that is true. If you tire of adding RO on a daily basis there are many auto topoff systems out there to do this for you. When considering a topoff system you might want to spring for a double float sytem as this gives you the added security of having one fail. This way you have a backup flaot and this will keep you from having a flood or crashing you salinity too low withan overload of fresh water.. Coming home from work and finding 5,10 or more gallons of water on your floor is a real bummer.

Another suggestion I would offer off topic is do a lot of reading you will find that there are many ways to keep a successful tank and no one way is an absolute in reefing.For example some would say you have to have an ORP meter, you have to run ozone, you need to have a UV unit. You have to run metal halides to have a successful stony tank.I say bolerdash to all of this. I have kept a nice reef for years without ozone, orp gear,UV units. You can also keep a very nice stony tank with only PC lighting. I have a link and will try to find it and it shows a tank I would die for packed with stonies and it is run with only PC lighting. This however is feasable with enough wattage for the size tank that is being kept.

All in all what I am saying is keep an open mind and enjoy your journey in salt water tanks, read a lot, ask lots of questions but dont let any one tell you there is only one way to have a killer tank. Talk to other reefers and see whats working for them, how long it been working well for them and most of all be patient, nothing good happens quickly in a reef tank only bad things do.

To close remember always, that no amount of gadgets can replace good husbandry. In adding critters you will enjoy the hobby more also if you know what you are trying to keep what they require what care you need to give. We all need to be more responsible in being knowledgable in what critters we keep and do out part to minmize the imapct we have on the reefs around the world. You wouldnt beileve how many newbies I have seen try to keep a coral that have not a clue how to keep and then when it dies they say oh well qand off to the LFS to buy another coral and still have no idea what they are doing. Well thats my save the planet speech for today Off the soap box already.

 

[coral_beauty]

It still seems like we're somewhat on the debate of whether a canister filter is better than a sump. Is it just me, or does anyone else feel that question is moot? A canister filter does not take the place of a sump, and a sump is not specifically for filtration.

I don't know if people are equating sumps to protein skimmers... A canister filter will not fulfill that roll.

I don't think this is a moot question. I think we are all talking about canisters and sumps in a more generalised fashion ie what each one is for, the benefits of each etc. I think you have made your point very clear previously that they are in fact different pieces of equipment. However you said so yourself, that sumps can indeed be used for filtration purposes and we are now exploring that topic. I admit, I struggle with the notion that a mechanical filter such as a canister filter is not necessarily needed in a reef setup, but I also think this stems from my initial misconception that a wet/dry filter and sump were one and the same. I also dont think anyone is confusing sumps or canister filters with protein skimmers even though many people do put their skimmers in their sump, but ur right, definately a good idea to have one (skimmer that is)!

On a slightly different note, thanks jumpincactus for your informative response and great suggestions. It has helped me a lot, and I suppose it's somewhat inspirational. I like ur style...

 

[Reggie]

I am obviously in the minority on the issue of canister filters not only in this forum but a couple of others of which I am a member. Though I am not an advocate of either method a canister filter is what I use and it has been working fine for me in my situation.

Brian5000 is most likely very correct in advising you to go the sump method and rightfully so given his experience. However, I for one an not at home enough to monitor my aquarium as thoroughly as I would like and for that reason alone I chose to utilize a canister filter.

Case in point, using myself only. I work internationally and am gone for 60 days and then return for 30. The tank I have is a 180g FOWLER with approximately 220 - 240 lbs of LR. During my time here I am very diligent in water changes, testing and all that goes with the hobby in taking care of my tank and fish. This also includes changing out the filter materials twice per month. Now during the 60 days I am gone no one and I do mean no one touches the canister filter. Yes, absolutely right Brian is correct Quote (another posting):

... that junk gets caught in the floss and rots causing algea issues...

Also, my wife does not perform water changes during this time unless there is a nitrate spike. When she does it is between 20%-25%. Basically the maintence she provides is monitoring the different levels and adding make-up water.

To date I have either been lucky, good or this is just another method of careing for a tank. I do not know you will have to be your own judge of what I say and the opinion of others here. All I can say is this is working for me and until something unfortunate happens or it is proved without a doubt I am wrong then this is the method/avenue I have chosen.

Suffice to say if I was at home on a regular basis I too would have a sump/refuge. So there you have my side of the story.

 

[coral_beauty]

That's preety much the same as me, in that I'm currently running a canister filter and haven't had any problems with it. The reason I started this thread was because my canister is dying and I'm going to need to either replace it or get something else very soon, so I thought I owuld see what everyone thought.

With regards to stuff getting caught in the sponge, I think this is actually what causes the high nitrates that everyone is talking about. A guy at one of my LFSs advocates using canisters, but not as they come packaged (they are usually designed for freshwater tanks). He reckons u can take out all of the sponges and just fill them with filter media like ceramic noodles, bio balls etc and they act as extra biological filtration.

Has anyone had any experience with this? what are your opinions on this theory?

 

[IslandCrow]

That makes sense to me. My canister filter has a very porous filter sleeve that I use (and clean regularly). It's main purpose is just to keep the bigger particles from clogging up the filter media, though. As far as an actual sponge, I'd agree that you'd probably be better served with some other type of filter media like the ones you mentioned.

 

[mr_X]

a cannister filter is great for removing large particles.
it's also good for running activated carbon or phosban from time to time.

for filtration, i would much prefer a sump with a simple filter sock on the intake. much easier to clean, and the sump can perform more duties than the cannister, and is easier to maintain.
if you wanted to use carbon or phosban, you could put it in a bag and throw it in the sump.

keeping a cannister for 2 months without cleaning it, is most likely the reason for the nitrate issues in Reggie's tank:
"Also, my wife does not perform water changes during this time unless there is a nitrate spike. When she does it is between 20%-25%. Basically the maintence she provides is monitoring the different levels and adding make-up water."
unless this is very rare?
but then again, everyone's bio load is diferent. if you are to feed sparsely, and someone else is to feed heavily, then you will see alot more changes in parameters than the next guy.

again- i used to use a rena xp3 on my tank. it would stink when i opened it, after just a week. stinking, is not good 8O .
maybe my bio load is much larger than most?

 

[Anonymous]

I have used both canisters and no canisters.

I have tested the waters during each usage and determined that canisters will raise nitrates. Just a fact.

If you clean them reguarly (like every 2 weeks MAX) the increase is very small, but there is an increase. If you leave that cleaning off for a month, nitrates rocket up.

In comparison, just using my protein skimmer and of course the live rock, nitrates are at zero or barely detectable.

Now, of course, I tried the canister WITHOUT media of any kind inside, and nitrates did not increase much even after a month+ of not rinsing out. Even two months. I do not recall testing beyond that.

What I use now is only a skimmer, and I added a couple of years ago, a hong on back filter...devoid again of any media. However, it creates GREAT surface flow, and I use it toadd any additives (whichis pretty much only the b-ionic 2 step) and a place to drop a bag or carbon once in a while.