Coral
- Thread starter swsaltwater
- Start date
Was it at any point in the past linked in some form to LiveAquaira or its affiliates?aquaticvet1":y0ikgo2z said:
GreshamH":y0ikgo2z said:Raskal311":y0ikgo2z said:GreshamH":y0ikgo2z said:Raskal311":y0ikgo2z said:A few? are you kidding me? I can't think of any that does not, not even Quality who probably does the best job.GreshamH":y0ikgo2z said:<<<< thinks a few wholesalers have done that for years
Good, but loaded, question Steve
I think you are mistaken. Quality Marine does not sell direct, or via a shell online website. QM doesn't even sell directly yo LA (Live Aquaria), they sell to another company that handles the LA account.
Nope no mistakes, I’ve ran into one customer there a little over a year ago and I don’t shop there often because they don’t open on the weekends. I have three customers who has bragged to me they buy from Quality. To be fair I can only confirm one out of the three. One thing all three have in common is that they are all wealthy: lawyers, COE ect… Not your common hobbyist with a sellers permit. I was initially very impressed by how hard it was to open an account with them but I guess everyone have their price; quality’s is just set higher then PAF.
I’m not sure what the deal is with LA but I had an ex sales guy tell me Qualities inventory data base is linked to LA. Can’t confirm this either but it cam directly from an ex employee when it was still employed by Quality. Is it not true that Quality package and shipped orders for LA at their warehouse?
removed - Race beat me to the punch
Sure a single hobbyist once in w blue moon may get a couple items, but how is that different then a store cutting a deep discount to friends?
No objection here, Quality runs a great facility and has higher business ethics then anyone else in the business. I have no objection with buying from them, if only they were opened during the weekends.
I do not know who the affiliates would be, we have none which we own either in part or in whole. To my knowledge all we have ever seen is a stock status from O2O which is not a real time or current inventory. It is not linked so we are unable to declinate and never has been. From day one our sales were based on a "best guess" inventory at O2O. Again, you will see on our sponsor forum on RC that we have never had an inventory link which is why we occasionally are bashed for having items for sale which are not available. That of course was solved with the Diver's Den, for which we control the inventory in Wisconsin and is real time.
From O2O, items other than the common are only allowed to us on an allocated basis. As I mentioned, Chris Buerner will not allow us, at any price, to have the rare and unusual specimens except above what he believes his retailers need. As you guys all know I will pay above list for items in the Diver's Den,---- and Chris will not sacrifice his retail accounts to supply me. After a personal and heart-felt meeting with Chris in 2004, I solved his reluctance to sell me more by building my own Wisconsin facility and we now buy the higher priced livestock items from about twenty sources. I do not particularly like it but Chris and I both know it is right and the way it has to be. Just smart business on Chris's part and I responded the best I could and it all worked out. This is the way the livestock business should be, all above board, and honest.
This industry needs strong and honest wholesalers and I really believe most retailers and etailers would have a better bottom line if they stuck with a person such as Chris Buerner at QM. Rather than getting burned by wholesalers who DIRECTLY sell to your customers, even own your competitors, you should agree we have to compete and when we can---- support the best, strongest and honest wholesalers out there. When a wholesaler is strong and honest, every account benefits from the supply and customer service.
Race
From O2O, items other than the common are only allowed to us on an allocated basis. As I mentioned, Chris Buerner will not allow us, at any price, to have the rare and unusual specimens except above what he believes his retailers need. As you guys all know I will pay above list for items in the Diver's Den,---- and Chris will not sacrifice his retail accounts to supply me. After a personal and heart-felt meeting with Chris in 2004, I solved his reluctance to sell me more by building my own Wisconsin facility and we now buy the higher priced livestock items from about twenty sources. I do not particularly like it but Chris and I both know it is right and the way it has to be. Just smart business on Chris's part and I responded the best I could and it all worked out. This is the way the livestock business should be, all above board, and honest.
This industry needs strong and honest wholesalers and I really believe most retailers and etailers would have a better bottom line if they stuck with a person such as Chris Buerner at QM. Rather than getting burned by wholesalers who DIRECTLY sell to your customers, even own your competitors, you should agree we have to compete and when we can---- support the best, strongest and honest wholesalers out there. When a wholesaler is strong and honest, every account benefits from the supply and customer service.
Race
Race,
You are getting so much of this wrong it is difficult to know where to start. You say that retailers should look at the BlueZoo model and be dissapointed yet the BlueZoo model is very much like your Live Aquaria model with the exception that BlueZoo does not have a major wholesaler to drop ship for them. The BlueZoo employees have to look at and pack every item they ship, they do not rely on a warehouse worker to pack and drop ship for them. BlueZoo has a 4,500 square foot facility in Carson, CA where they have a large amount of both fish and invert holding area. They house all of their WYSIWYG and collectors choice animals at their facility much like your divers den. They are smaller than Live Aquaria but all of the animals that they ship have been looked at by BlueZoo employees and are packed in their own facility which is something that does not happen with Live Aquaria. Is it worse for a wholesaler to sell to large walk in customers or to drop ship for a large internet company? That is the question for retailers to answer. In the Live Aquaria case Quality Marine is receiving an order from Live Aquaria then using the Quality Marine employees to pick, pack, and ship directly to the customer the items ordered. In the BlueZoo case PAF receives the orders from Blue Zoo, a PAF employee pulls the livestock and puts it in a staging area, an employee of Blue Zoo comes in and looks at the animals and either accepts them or rejects them according to what he has seen available at other wholesalers or what they have in stock at their facility. The animals are then packed just like for any other walk in customer and BlueZoo takes them back to their facility for either ship out or to be held at their facility for quarantine to be shipped at a later date. In which case is the wholesaler stepping over the line to retailer dissapointment? In my mind drop shipping by a wholesaler is much worse than selling on an even playing field to walk in customers. PAF will not do drop shipping for anyone. They will not even drop ship rock for any customer even though that is pretty accepted practice by other wholesalers. I think that drop shipping steps over the line. Others may feel differently.
At PAF BlueZoo gets the same treatment that is offered to other large customers. In fact they are rarely here at opening time so other earlier walk ins often get the first picks. When you were buying from PAF (Live Aquaria was PAF's largest customer until I personally, not PAF, helped BlueZoo through a difficult time which kept them in business and Race stopped buying from PAF) Live Aquaria had way more access to cherry items and received way more preferential treatment than BlueZoo gets from PAF. Large customers get preferential treatment, that is the way it works in most any business. BlueZoo is now PAF's largest customer but BlueZoo still buys close to half of their livestock from other sources. PAF does not carry everything that they need nor do I always have the best quality, BlueZoo buys from everyone to insure that they have the best selection and the best quality they can find, they are not locked into one supply source.
There you have it Race. Which wholesaler should the retailers be most dissapointed with, one that drop ships for the largest internet seller around or one that tries to keep a level playing field for both retail stores and internet sellers by insuring the internet sellers have the expense of a facility and workers. In my opinion drop ship from a wholesaler is the biggest threat to retail brick and mortars. Any brick and mortar can set up a web site and ship from his facility, not every brick and mortar can get Quality Marine or other large wholesaler to drop ship for them. Drop shipping is a line that I have not yet stepped over and I hope to not need to step over in the future.
Dave Palmer
You are getting so much of this wrong it is difficult to know where to start. You say that retailers should look at the BlueZoo model and be dissapointed yet the BlueZoo model is very much like your Live Aquaria model with the exception that BlueZoo does not have a major wholesaler to drop ship for them. The BlueZoo employees have to look at and pack every item they ship, they do not rely on a warehouse worker to pack and drop ship for them. BlueZoo has a 4,500 square foot facility in Carson, CA where they have a large amount of both fish and invert holding area. They house all of their WYSIWYG and collectors choice animals at their facility much like your divers den. They are smaller than Live Aquaria but all of the animals that they ship have been looked at by BlueZoo employees and are packed in their own facility which is something that does not happen with Live Aquaria. Is it worse for a wholesaler to sell to large walk in customers or to drop ship for a large internet company? That is the question for retailers to answer. In the Live Aquaria case Quality Marine is receiving an order from Live Aquaria then using the Quality Marine employees to pick, pack, and ship directly to the customer the items ordered. In the BlueZoo case PAF receives the orders from Blue Zoo, a PAF employee pulls the livestock and puts it in a staging area, an employee of Blue Zoo comes in and looks at the animals and either accepts them or rejects them according to what he has seen available at other wholesalers or what they have in stock at their facility. The animals are then packed just like for any other walk in customer and BlueZoo takes them back to their facility for either ship out or to be held at their facility for quarantine to be shipped at a later date. In which case is the wholesaler stepping over the line to retailer dissapointment? In my mind drop shipping by a wholesaler is much worse than selling on an even playing field to walk in customers. PAF will not do drop shipping for anyone. They will not even drop ship rock for any customer even though that is pretty accepted practice by other wholesalers. I think that drop shipping steps over the line. Others may feel differently.
At PAF BlueZoo gets the same treatment that is offered to other large customers. In fact they are rarely here at opening time so other earlier walk ins often get the first picks. When you were buying from PAF (Live Aquaria was PAF's largest customer until I personally, not PAF, helped BlueZoo through a difficult time which kept them in business and Race stopped buying from PAF) Live Aquaria had way more access to cherry items and received way more preferential treatment than BlueZoo gets from PAF. Large customers get preferential treatment, that is the way it works in most any business. BlueZoo is now PAF's largest customer but BlueZoo still buys close to half of their livestock from other sources. PAF does not carry everything that they need nor do I always have the best quality, BlueZoo buys from everyone to insure that they have the best selection and the best quality they can find, they are not locked into one supply source.
There you have it Race. Which wholesaler should the retailers be most dissapointed with, one that drop ships for the largest internet seller around or one that tries to keep a level playing field for both retail stores and internet sellers by insuring the internet sellers have the expense of a facility and workers. In my opinion drop ship from a wholesaler is the biggest threat to retail brick and mortars. Any brick and mortar can set up a web site and ship from his facility, not every brick and mortar can get Quality Marine or other large wholesaler to drop ship for them. Drop shipping is a line that I have not yet stepped over and I hope to not need to step over in the future.
Dave Palmer
PAF never had anything to do with Reefer Madness other than when I bought into PAF Reefer Madness had an earlier agreement to rent some tank space in the PAF facility. There was always animosity between PAF emplyees and Reefer Madness and finally when Reefer was large enough they moved out to their own facility. That was a happy day for PAF.
Reefer Maddness did have a connection with one of PAF's main suppliers and received some spectacular specimens directly from this supplier but it had nothing to do with PAF, it did not run through our tanks or through our books. Reefer Maddness was a customer of PAF's and did buy some of their supply from PAF as a regular customer.
As many people know Reefer Maddness folded up a few years ago and the principle Chris Turnier moved to Fiji and is shipping high end corals from Fiji.
As to the above quote, I have seen the coral selection at the other 3 wholesalers on 104th and I am of the opinion that PAF is still the best coral game on 104th although SDC is stepping up their game with coral.
Dave
Retailers will just have to make their own decisions,----- a dropshipper who protects supply for their retail accounts, or a wholesaler who sells the cherries directly to the retailers customers. Makes no difference to me, I have my plan and most of it is in Wisconsin. I only jumped in because my name was mentioned.
A dropshipper who protects supply for their retail accounts. What does that mean? It sounds to me like that means that as long as I have enough supply to fill the needs of my retail accounts that it is then fine for me to drop ship directly to retail customers. I don't think so, shipping directly to retail accounts hurts brick and mortars, they have a hard time competing, by shipping direct to retail accounts it is no longer a level playing field. Now Quality Marine shipping to your Wisconsin facility and you shipping back out is a level playing field. I don't think that many retailers will have an issue with that. The size of a wholesalers supply and whether he has excess over the needs of his retail customers should not be the criteria of whether shipping direct to retail customers is correct. Drop shipping from a wholesaler gives you an advantage over the brick and mortar stores out there. Shipping the product to Wisconsin and then reshipping from there levels the playing field and is correct in my opinion.
As to a wholesaler who sells cherries directly to a retailers customer that steps over the line obviously. At PAF we sell wholesale, we have current resale numbers on file for every account in California and business licenses and resale numbers where applicable for sales outside of California. We do not ship directly to any retail customers, in fact PAF does not even have a FedEx or UPS account.
Race, as you I jumped in because my name was mentioned and some pretty broad false statements made.
Dave
As to a wholesaler who sells cherries directly to a retailers customer that steps over the line obviously. At PAF we sell wholesale, we have current resale numbers on file for every account in California and business licenses and resale numbers where applicable for sales outside of California. We do not ship directly to any retail customers, in fact PAF does not even have a FedEx or UPS account.
Race, as you I jumped in because my name was mentioned and some pretty broad false statements made.
Dave
Bluezoo Dave, Bluezoo---------you are what you have ownership stake in. They sell directly to the end user, your retailers customers.
Big difference, Chris Buerner has no ownership stake in LiveAquaria, I am just another customer. You are part owner in BlueZoo, you are not just another customer of PAF.
Big difference, Chris Buerner has no ownership stake in LiveAquaria, I am just another customer. You are part owner in BlueZoo, you are not just another customer of PAF.
Race,
I have ownership in several companies as I am sure you do, thank goodness we do not have to commit to one thing in this capitalist market.
Blue Zoo is just another customer for PAF (PAF's largest customer now). I do not own 100 % of PAF nor do I own 100% of Blue Zoo. To be fair to all partners I view Blue Zoo as just another customer just as Reefer Maddness was just another customer when they were around. I sell to quite a few other internet retailers and if anything I bend over backwards to accomodate them often at a cost to Blue Zoo. Many times I have sold cherries to other accounts even though Blue Zoo wanted them. I try to take care of Blue Zoo, it is after all my largest customer, but they certainly do not get all the cherries by far the bulk of their business with me is for bread and butter items. They, like Kevin Kohen does for you, scour many other sources to come up with the best they can find.
Dave
I have ownership in several companies as I am sure you do, thank goodness we do not have to commit to one thing in this capitalist market.
Blue Zoo is just another customer for PAF (PAF's largest customer now). I do not own 100 % of PAF nor do I own 100% of Blue Zoo. To be fair to all partners I view Blue Zoo as just another customer just as Reefer Maddness was just another customer when they were around. I sell to quite a few other internet retailers and if anything I bend over backwards to accomodate them often at a cost to Blue Zoo. Many times I have sold cherries to other accounts even though Blue Zoo wanted them. I try to take care of Blue Zoo, it is after all my largest customer, but they certainly do not get all the cherries by far the bulk of their business with me is for bread and butter items. They, like Kevin Kohen does for you, scour many other sources to come up with the best they can find.
Dave
Race,
To be clear, Yes I did put personal money into Blue Zoo. I have never tried to hide that fact. They were a large customer of mine and the majority owners decided to liquidate the company. I did not want to lose a good customer so I contacted a friend of mine and he bought the Blue Zoo equipment at a fire sale price and then he funded them to get up and running again. A few weeks into it he realized that it was going to be too much trouble for him as he lived 1,000 miles away and he was not comfortable being absent. He asked me to buy the equipment which I agreed to and he bailed out. I made the decision to let Blue Zoo continue using the equipment and stay in business and in return they would make PAF their main supply. The company kept the same workers, warehouse, procedures, etc. The main difference is that they became a much larger customer for PAF. At some point they will either pay me for the equipment or I will use it elsewhere, the equipment is now mine. At the time I felt like it was a good move for me and PAF, however once I told Kevin Kohen about it then Live Aquaria stopped buying from PAF. So what happened for PAF is that I lost my biggest customer and gained a big customer and it pretty much came out a wash, not really a good or bad deal for PAF.
So there you have it in black and white. I put personal money into Blue Zoo, I thought that it would be beneficial to PAF, it turned out to be a wash. I kept one customer alive and lost another. If another large customer came to me with the same type of deal I would do it again, I don't like losing customers by them going out of business. I wish that it would have worked out with my friend but it did not and I ended up with the deal.
Dave
To be clear, Yes I did put personal money into Blue Zoo. I have never tried to hide that fact. They were a large customer of mine and the majority owners decided to liquidate the company. I did not want to lose a good customer so I contacted a friend of mine and he bought the Blue Zoo equipment at a fire sale price and then he funded them to get up and running again. A few weeks into it he realized that it was going to be too much trouble for him as he lived 1,000 miles away and he was not comfortable being absent. He asked me to buy the equipment which I agreed to and he bailed out. I made the decision to let Blue Zoo continue using the equipment and stay in business and in return they would make PAF their main supply. The company kept the same workers, warehouse, procedures, etc. The main difference is that they became a much larger customer for PAF. At some point they will either pay me for the equipment or I will use it elsewhere, the equipment is now mine. At the time I felt like it was a good move for me and PAF, however once I told Kevin Kohen about it then Live Aquaria stopped buying from PAF. So what happened for PAF is that I lost my biggest customer and gained a big customer and it pretty much came out a wash, not really a good or bad deal for PAF.
So there you have it in black and white. I put personal money into Blue Zoo, I thought that it would be beneficial to PAF, it turned out to be a wash. I kept one customer alive and lost another. If another large customer came to me with the same type of deal I would do it again, I don't like losing customers by them going out of business. I wish that it would have worked out with my friend but it did not and I ended up with the deal.
Dave
for all of this hullabaloo about qm's 'quality', i'd like to make an observation or two...
the lfs i work at orders mainly from 3 wholesalers-one of which is qm
we've seen NO major difference between the three, as regards cleanliness of the fish (they all send butterflys and angels that are sometimes rampant with flukes) or as regards doa/daa rates (on avg., they're pretty much equal, across the board, as far as fish are concerned)
they've all seemed to have experienced a drop in the quality of their sources since the early spring of this year
one question comes to mind...
given that the source locales, exporters, collection/holding stations are limited in number, and that the turnaround times between landing and shipout are most likely very similiar from importer to importer...
i would imagine that most importers are recieving stock very similiar in 'quality' to each other,(possibly from the same catch locations) and that most if not all, given the limited amount of time available to improve the stock before shipout (turnaround can be as little as less than 24 hrs from landing to shipout, to about a week, on avg., for most fish), can only do so much...
it really seems impossible that one can have as superior an edge as seems to be claimed here, all things considered :?
the lfs i work at orders mainly from 3 wholesalers-one of which is qm
we've seen NO major difference between the three, as regards cleanliness of the fish (they all send butterflys and angels that are sometimes rampant with flukes) or as regards doa/daa rates (on avg., they're pretty much equal, across the board, as far as fish are concerned)
they've all seemed to have experienced a drop in the quality of their sources since the early spring of this year
one question comes to mind...
given that the source locales, exporters, collection/holding stations are limited in number, and that the turnaround times between landing and shipout are most likely very similiar from importer to importer...
i would imagine that most importers are recieving stock very similiar in 'quality' to each other,(possibly from the same catch locations) and that most if not all, given the limited amount of time available to improve the stock before shipout (turnaround can be as little as less than 24 hrs from landing to shipout, to about a week, on avg., for most fish), can only do so much...
it really seems impossible that one can have as superior an edge as seems to be claimed here, all things considered :?
Thank you Dave. Like you and I did, I wish more would get involved with etail. I think this is a developing market and more etailers would help customers become familiar with buying livestock through the mail. There is room for everyone and competition is a good thing. Good luck!
It's not all just quality marines "quality" (which I find way above the rest). It is also their DOA policy. Too many time I turn in DOA's or problems and get a fraction of the list credited. Quality credits DOA's, and has far less then any other supplier I have used to date(SDC for me had a ton of DAA/DOA on the small fish uronema, septacimia, etc, not so much the larger stuff as I medicated them in time) . I had good runs with SDC in the past as well as UWWE, but both ended with high DOA/DAA rates causing a rift when no credit or too little was issued, and one entire shipment lost from UWWE that they told me to take it in the arse........After the economy got bad then they wanted to issue credit for half of it to get me back. They lost 30k a year in sales that other wholesalers and transhippers were happy to have that. It is not much as we are small but every bit counts as they are now seeing in this downturn economy...... Until I get a coral supplier at a wholesale level that can supply me with the nice stuff I get via tranship on a constant basis at a fair wholesale price I will stick to tranship(not transhipping for price as much as quality and rare items). I looked at O2O in the past but since I had multiple suppliers I did not want to commit to thier minimums but I order that much from them monthly now so I might try to switch over. Not sure yet.
Dave,
Back to ReeferMadness. Since you said I have some things in error, I would like to understand them better. When Mike Laskey was brokering the selling of ReeferMadness, I was one of his prospects. For some reason I was not of the impression that I would be purchasing Reefermadness from Chris Turnier.
Question for you please. Did--- ANY---- shareholder, past or present, of PAF own a financial interest in ReeferMadness? Did ReeferMadness have any special vendor relationship with PAF ? Who owned the building Reefermadness and PAF were in or is it simply owned by a warehousing company and the two, meaning PAF and ReeferMadness, just happend to find themselves side by side with the employees " not getting along"? Were any blood relatives of PAF's past or present owners also connected with ReeferMadness, how about BlueZoo, either financially or as an employee??
You mentioned that PAF does not have a FEDX account, but by the way------you do. Why do you offer BlueZoo customers, meaning hobbyists, " Free Shipping " for livestock and a guarantee but you do not offer that same service to your retail accounts ? As a LFS owner, I would love free shipping by FedX on orders over 75.00 with a long guarantee on the livestock, that is what you give your other customers so the LFS should get it too and perhaps they do. For me personally, Chris Buerner would not allow me enough margin to continue my free shipping so I abandoned it. My guess is since BlueZoo is part of PAF, BlueZoo buys better than I can from QM so BlueZoo can afford free shipping to the hobbyist and I cannot. Not a problem, just pointing out the difference between dropshipping and PAF's abilities. Hard for me to understand your comment that dropshipping is more destructive to the LFS business than is your model of wholesalers, meaning PAF, selling direct under the smoke cover of BlueZoo. PAF ( via Bluezoo ) can and does undercut the LFS on livestock price. Generally I am not able and for sure Chris Buerner, since he does not sell direct like PAF, has no ability to undercut the LFS, nor would he do so.
You mentioned that QM was a dropshipper and you were not. I am sure you meant that was the case as you personally have ownership in BlueZoo and PAF and therefore PAF cannot be considered a dropshipper since the companies are basically considered one and the same. You are shipping for yourself, a wholesaler selling direct to your customer's customers-------so you cannot really be considered a dropshipper, I think I get it.
I may not post more but when I am accused not being factual----well, I like to get my facts straight. Please set me straight.
Back to ReeferMadness. Since you said I have some things in error, I would like to understand them better. When Mike Laskey was brokering the selling of ReeferMadness, I was one of his prospects. For some reason I was not of the impression that I would be purchasing Reefermadness from Chris Turnier.
Question for you please. Did--- ANY---- shareholder, past or present, of PAF own a financial interest in ReeferMadness? Did ReeferMadness have any special vendor relationship with PAF ? Who owned the building Reefermadness and PAF were in or is it simply owned by a warehousing company and the two, meaning PAF and ReeferMadness, just happend to find themselves side by side with the employees " not getting along"? Were any blood relatives of PAF's past or present owners also connected with ReeferMadness, how about BlueZoo, either financially or as an employee??
You mentioned that PAF does not have a FEDX account, but by the way------you do. Why do you offer BlueZoo customers, meaning hobbyists, " Free Shipping " for livestock and a guarantee but you do not offer that same service to your retail accounts ? As a LFS owner, I would love free shipping by FedX on orders over 75.00 with a long guarantee on the livestock, that is what you give your other customers so the LFS should get it too and perhaps they do. For me personally, Chris Buerner would not allow me enough margin to continue my free shipping so I abandoned it. My guess is since BlueZoo is part of PAF, BlueZoo buys better than I can from QM so BlueZoo can afford free shipping to the hobbyist and I cannot. Not a problem, just pointing out the difference between dropshipping and PAF's abilities. Hard for me to understand your comment that dropshipping is more destructive to the LFS business than is your model of wholesalers, meaning PAF, selling direct under the smoke cover of BlueZoo. PAF ( via Bluezoo ) can and does undercut the LFS on livestock price. Generally I am not able and for sure Chris Buerner, since he does not sell direct like PAF, has no ability to undercut the LFS, nor would he do so.
You mentioned that QM was a dropshipper and you were not. I am sure you meant that was the case as you personally have ownership in BlueZoo and PAF and therefore PAF cannot be considered a dropshipper since the companies are basically considered one and the same. You are shipping for yourself, a wholesaler selling direct to your customer's customers-------so you cannot really be considered a dropshipper, I think I get it.
I may not post more but when I am accused not being factual----well, I like to get my facts straight. Please set me straight.
I forgot one thing. You painted the picture that I am upset with you because we compete. Dave, please understand that I have had the opportunity to purchase wholesalers and do exactly as you do,------ in other words become a wholesaler/importer that has retail accounts and, under a different name, (in this case BlueZoo), also be selling directly to the retailers customer's via etail. I have not gone that route as there is no way imaginable that a LFS should support any wholesaler that also sells direct to their customers , even if it is under a smoke screen such as BlueZoo. That is a very conflicting business model and history. Flying Fish, which I now own , has proven it does not work.
I guess what I am saying is that LiveAquaria can have your model but it is bad business. I would have expected any retailer(LFS) to leave my wholesale business once they found out I was also shipping via the internet to their customers. I am not sure why you should expect anything different.
Enough said, as I mentioned I do wish you well and valued the relationship we had. Times have changed and so must we.
I guess what I am saying is that LiveAquaria can have your model but it is bad business. I would have expected any retailer(LFS) to leave my wholesale business once they found out I was also shipping via the internet to their customers. I am not sure why you should expect anything different.
Enough said, as I mentioned I do wish you well and valued the relationship we had. Times have changed and so must we.
Here are your answers Race,
Chris Turnier managed Reefer Madness, he did not own it, you should know that.
PAF had no financial interest in Reefer Madness, I purchased 75% of the shares of PAF and that included exactly 0% of Reefer Madness. Reefer Madness was owned by share holders (I do not know how many or the share breakdown) two of those shareholders jointly owned 22% of PAFs shares. When I bought into PAF I inherited an agreement that Reefer Madness would rent tank space from PAF.
The building that PAF occupies is owned by a real estate trust and we have a lease agreement for the building. Reefer Madness paid rent checks monthly to PAF for their share of tank space.
Reefer Madness had no special vendor relationship with PAF other than what other large customers have. I had and still have accounts that have a stronger vendor relationship with PAF.
Chris Wray is a nephew of Deb Smith, he worked for Reefer Madness and has now been hired to work as a coral specialist at Blue Zoo. He has never had a financial or ownership connection with either company.
I might hire my son to work for me, I see nothing wrong with putting relatives to work.
PAF does not have a FEDEX account, Blue Zoo has a FEDEX account. If I want to ship something from PAF via FEDEX it has to go out on the recipients account, PAF has no account and ships from 104th street only if the recipient uses their account number.
I am sure that Blue Zoo would be happy to ship to any LFS accounts with the free shipping. In fact they do ship to some store accounts and give a large discount to boot along with the free shipping. PAF does not as we are not able to ship FEDEX and do not offer free shipping. (That seems pretty straight forward and simple, I do not understand why you don't get this).
I am sorry that Chris Buerner charges you so much for livestock that you can not offer free shipping. I know that Quality Marines prices are high, he has an expensive set up and has Quality fish and I think that they are worth the cost. In fact Blue Zoo buys quite a few fish from them daily yet still offers the free shipping. They can do this because Quality Marine is not drop shipping for them, Blue Zoo pays the regular wholesale price for fish at Quality Marine, takes the fish back to their warehouse and ships them from Carson, CA. I understand from your posts that you pay Quality a higher price for your livestock so that they will drop ship it for you.
Blue Zoo buys at the same arrangement from PAF that is offered to any large customer. The offer is good for Live Aquaria also. From what you have said I guess that buying from PAF at that deal would allow you to offer free shipping. There you go, I solved your shipping problem (don't get upset about the flippent statement, I say it in jest).
Dropshipping is more destructive to the LFS because the average LFS can not compete with the drop ship model. They can however compete on a level playing field if competing with a business that warehouses and ships its own products. Any legit business operator can sell fish via the internet and ship from his own brick and mortar facility. Not everyone can get a major wholesaler to drop ship for them. By drop shipping for Live Aquaria but refusing to drop ship for their other regular customers Quality Marine is undercutting their LFS base. If they required you to ship everything out of Wisconsin then they would be leveling the playing field for all of their customers. They are playing favorites with Live Aquaria. PAF will not drop ship for any customer no matter how large or small.
You are the only one that considers PAF and Blue Zoo one and the same. The state of California does not consider them the same, the IRS does not consider them the same, U.S. fish and wildlife does not consider them the same, the employees at PAF do not consider them the same, the employees of Blue Zoo do not consider them the same, the bank does not consider them the same, FEDEX does not consider them the same, my accountants do not consider them the same, I do not consider them the same, the walk in customers that I have talked to do not consider them the same. YOU consider them the same but it takes some convoluted thinking to get there.
I think that answers most of your questions, I hope that you have your facts straight now.
Dave
Chris Turnier managed Reefer Madness, he did not own it, you should know that.
PAF had no financial interest in Reefer Madness, I purchased 75% of the shares of PAF and that included exactly 0% of Reefer Madness. Reefer Madness was owned by share holders (I do not know how many or the share breakdown) two of those shareholders jointly owned 22% of PAFs shares. When I bought into PAF I inherited an agreement that Reefer Madness would rent tank space from PAF.
The building that PAF occupies is owned by a real estate trust and we have a lease agreement for the building. Reefer Madness paid rent checks monthly to PAF for their share of tank space.
Reefer Madness had no special vendor relationship with PAF other than what other large customers have. I had and still have accounts that have a stronger vendor relationship with PAF.
Chris Wray is a nephew of Deb Smith, he worked for Reefer Madness and has now been hired to work as a coral specialist at Blue Zoo. He has never had a financial or ownership connection with either company.
I might hire my son to work for me, I see nothing wrong with putting relatives to work.
PAF does not have a FEDEX account, Blue Zoo has a FEDEX account. If I want to ship something from PAF via FEDEX it has to go out on the recipients account, PAF has no account and ships from 104th street only if the recipient uses their account number.
I am sure that Blue Zoo would be happy to ship to any LFS accounts with the free shipping. In fact they do ship to some store accounts and give a large discount to boot along with the free shipping. PAF does not as we are not able to ship FEDEX and do not offer free shipping. (That seems pretty straight forward and simple, I do not understand why you don't get this).
I am sorry that Chris Buerner charges you so much for livestock that you can not offer free shipping. I know that Quality Marines prices are high, he has an expensive set up and has Quality fish and I think that they are worth the cost. In fact Blue Zoo buys quite a few fish from them daily yet still offers the free shipping. They can do this because Quality Marine is not drop shipping for them, Blue Zoo pays the regular wholesale price for fish at Quality Marine, takes the fish back to their warehouse and ships them from Carson, CA. I understand from your posts that you pay Quality a higher price for your livestock so that they will drop ship it for you.
Blue Zoo buys at the same arrangement from PAF that is offered to any large customer. The offer is good for Live Aquaria also. From what you have said I guess that buying from PAF at that deal would allow you to offer free shipping. There you go, I solved your shipping problem (don't get upset about the flippent statement, I say it in jest).
Dropshipping is more destructive to the LFS because the average LFS can not compete with the drop ship model. They can however compete on a level playing field if competing with a business that warehouses and ships its own products. Any legit business operator can sell fish via the internet and ship from his own brick and mortar facility. Not everyone can get a major wholesaler to drop ship for them. By drop shipping for Live Aquaria but refusing to drop ship for their other regular customers Quality Marine is undercutting their LFS base. If they required you to ship everything out of Wisconsin then they would be leveling the playing field for all of their customers. They are playing favorites with Live Aquaria. PAF will not drop ship for any customer no matter how large or small.
You are the only one that considers PAF and Blue Zoo one and the same. The state of California does not consider them the same, the IRS does not consider them the same, U.S. fish and wildlife does not consider them the same, the employees at PAF do not consider them the same, the employees of Blue Zoo do not consider them the same, the bank does not consider them the same, FEDEX does not consider them the same, my accountants do not consider them the same, I do not consider them the same, the walk in customers that I have talked to do not consider them the same. YOU consider them the same but it takes some convoluted thinking to get there.
I think that answers most of your questions, I hope that you have your facts straight now.
Dave
Thank you Dave,
It has now been established that two of PAF's owners were indeed share owners in Reefermadness , of course I knew that. It is also clear that today at least one of PAF's owners, that being you, is indeed an owner in the Etailer, BlueZooAquatics. For business purposes you keep the two separate with the state of California, nothing wrong with that.
What I deduct is that historically and today PAF (Pacific Aqua Farms ) has a personal and financial ownership interest in selling, via Etail, around their retail customers and direct to the hobbyist. That is perfectly legal---- IMO, just a bad business plan and one that QM ( Quality Marine ) and most others do not partake in.
Although I hope you keep all your retail accounts, quite frankly there would have to be some pretty ignorant retailers out there for that to be the case.
I will say no more on the subject. Thank you for the dialogue-------Race
It has now been established that two of PAF's owners were indeed share owners in Reefermadness , of course I knew that. It is also clear that today at least one of PAF's owners, that being you, is indeed an owner in the Etailer, BlueZooAquatics. For business purposes you keep the two separate with the state of California, nothing wrong with that.
What I deduct is that historically and today PAF (Pacific Aqua Farms ) has a personal and financial ownership interest in selling, via Etail, around their retail customers and direct to the hobbyist. That is perfectly legal---- IMO, just a bad business plan and one that QM ( Quality Marine ) and most others do not partake in.
Although I hope you keep all your retail accounts, quite frankly there would have to be some pretty ignorant retailers out there for that to be the case.
I will say no more on the subject. Thank you for the dialogue-------Race
So basically unless you get a ton of something BZ will surely get the good stuff. Family is allowed in after hours to see the stuff I am sure...........Rhizo shipment of 4 peices, BZ has it. Multi rainbow fungia, you guessed it.........Not saying I would not love to have the advantage of a relative owning a wholesaler cause it would be impossible to resist that temptation.
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