Coral

[Fish_dave]

Unfortunatly Rhizos have not been brought into the U.S. legally. Check the U.S. Fish and Wildlife records, none have been imported legally (declared as Rhizo). If you have one you most probably have a smuggled coral. I have seen them, even had a guy hand carry one from Japan and he brought it into the shop but according to the L.A. Fish and Wildlife their national records show no importation of a properly declared Rhizotrochus. Quite a few show up at the frag swap meets, I don't know why Fish and Wildlife does not just show up at the swap meets and work backwards to find out how they are getting into the country. At first they were coming into the country from Hong Kong on a re-export cites with Tonga as origin, that was busted and a bunch showed up in both Jakarta and Bali and were sent in mis-named, a few importers in L.A. were busted with them in shipments. More came in via FedEx and UPS from Tiawan and Japan. Fish and Wildlife should work backwards from the hobbyists to the source to find out how they are showing up.

This is a big problem with the coral trade right now, everyone expects to be sold only rare and in many cases illegal corals. It makes it hard for wholesalers who try to obey the law when so much of this stuff is coming in via transship and overnight mail.

Dave

 

[Raskal311]

A dropshipper who protects supply for their retail accounts. What does that mean? It sounds to me like that means that as long as I have enough supply to fill the needs of my retail accounts that it is then fine for me to drop ship directly to retail customers. I don't think so, shipping directly to retail accounts hurts brick and mortars, they have a hard time competing, by shipping direct to retail accounts it is no longer a level playing field. Now Quality Marine shipping to your Wisconsin facility and you shipping back out is a level playing field. I don't think that many retailers will have an issue with that. The size of a wholesalers supply and whether he has excess over the needs of his retail customers should not be the criteria of whether shipping direct to retail customers is correct. Drop shipping from a wholesaler gives you an advantage over the brick and mortar stores out there. Shipping the product to Wisconsin and then reshipping from there levels the playing field and is correct in my opinion.

As to a wholesaler who sells cherries directly to a retailers customer that steps over the line obviously. At PAF we sell wholesale, we have current resale numbers on file for every account in California and business licenses and resale numbers where applicable for sales outside of California. We do not ship directly to any retail customers, in fact PAF does not even have a FedEx or UPS account.

Race, as you I jumped in because my name was mentioned and some pretty broad false statements made.

Dave

It is not hard for anyone to run to city hall and get a resale number and PAF knows that just as well as everyone with an RC.com account; like I said many times before been there done that. I saw a hobbyist tell a sales guy straight out that he didn’t have a business and was only buying it for his personal tank. Guess what the sales guy said? ‘Take a look at this, its rare’…. PAF knows exactly who they are selling to.

You are correct PAF does have the best coral selection on 104 by far.

 

[coralfarmin]

oops ment that for the other thread "sorry"

kind regards
eddie

 

[swsaltwater]

Well did not have to trash any corals most of them died off on their own, really piss poor color, quality, and service now. Lobos never opened and bleached off so they were not likely tanked at all and shipped prior to opening up. Corals that arrived from quality and my tranship are all ok and healthy, just the PAF stuff that is dieing, ugly fungia from QM but it is healthy I should have packed it all took it back to the airport and sent it back.

 

[organism]

My first post after being on here for many years To clear up in advance, my name is Miguel, I used to run Fraggle Reef, and went on to write Practical Coral Farming to help the industry become more focused on the survival of the natural reef systems that we're trying to recreate in our homes. I now work for PAF, but those that know me know that my integrity stands on its own, if that's not enough then please feel free to take anything I'm saying with a grain of salt. I actually found this thread very much by accident and will in all probability get absolutely reamed for posting my opinions in here.

Race openly admited here to buying from Quality and was a big reason I did not buy there in the past.

As SW mentioned , we dropship items from Ocean to Ocean which is part of QM.

His integrity forced me to assume overhead in Wisconsin rather then strictly dropshipping.

So let me get this straight, your company dropships from O2O, which is a wholesaler, which is QM. So you get a wholesaler to ship directly to your retail customers. Period, end of discussion. Like you said, you'd love to strictly drop ship but can't, partly because it's impossible to have the stock on hand without the huge overhead, but mostly because they won't lose every customer they have by letting you do so. This direct, unethical involvement from a wholesaler is what allows you to compete online. Blue zoo doesn't have that, I know because I watch them come here to pick their livestock and fish to take to their facility for processing and ship out. So as far as direct, unethical wholesaler help that's 1 for you and 0 for blue zoo.

After a personal and heart-felt meeting with Chris in 2004, I solved his reluctance to sell me more by building my own Wisconsin facility and we now buy the higher priced livestock items from about twenty sources. I do not particularly like it but Chris and I both know it is right and the way it has to be.

Ah, ok, so you're now a bigger customer to QM and now get better access to quality pieces, like blue zoo and PAF. If you spend money, you get better access, it's how it goes in any industry.

You say that retailers should look at the BlueZoo model and be dissapointed yet the BlueZoo model is very much like your Live Aquaria model with the exception that BlueZoo does not have a major wholesaler to drop ship for them.

So the differences are: Dave owns part of blue zoo, and LA has a wholesaler actively ship directly to their retail customers. I'd keep quoting your responses from the rest of the thread Race but I'll narrow them down into one sentence: "I'm pissed that I now have a competitor that's large enough to hamper my business, so I'll try to hurt them at all costs by pretending to ignore what my own business is actively doing."

Your entire argument is that Dave might be doing something unethical if blue zoo got preferential treatment, which they don't, then that might be worse than the fact that you actually use a wholesaler to drop ship for you in order to lower overhead to get one over on the same brick and mortar guys that you're appealing for support on this one. Seriously? No cognitive dissonance on that one?

Blue zoo doesn't get any kind of preferential treatment here, they have the same opportunities to get good corals as anyone else. They don't get pandered to, it just doesn't happen. Realistically there wouldn't be any point and it makes for a terrible argument, the online market is absolutely minimal compared to the wholesale market. You pander to where the money is, and the money is in wholesale, blue zoo just doesn't have the clout to get consideration over the stores that PAF supplies. And also, just because someone owns two possibly conflicting things doesn't mean anything weird is going on. For instance, I own beer, and I own a car, but I'm not about to do both at the same time, because realistically there wouldn't be any point and it makes for a terrible argument, especially if that argument is actively being made by someone who's trying to hide the fact that they're drinking and driving, know what I mean Race? You're probably going to post another reply devoid of cognitive dissonance so have at it, this reply isn't for you, it's to clear up the bs that you've filled this thread with, so I won't be replying to you since you're kind of a broken record at this point.

As for shops that have gotten lower quality shipments from PAF or anywhere else, your problem isn't with the wholesaler, it's with your rep. At any wholesaler, sometimes like anyone else reps have bad days, they may not know anything about corals, or sometimes they just don't know what it is that stores are looking for. swsaltwater, I had a few crappy shipments from a few wholesalers when I had my shop, it sucks, and I couldn't agree with you more about how bad it is to have a customer look at your stock and wonder how hard you must have hit your head to have allowed yourself to receive it. I got stuck with crap that I couldn't even give away. It's inexcusable, from anywhere.

That said, Blue Zoo has nothing to do with PAF aside from happening to be partially owned by one one of the part owners of PAF, I mean, I get more cherry picks than any of the guys from Blue Zoo any day of the week, because they're hardly ever here! Great corals come in all the time, and the reason I started working here is because it's where I mainly got all of my corals when I had my shop, and knew that I could give out the same quality corals that I built my business on. EVERY shop that I supply has nothing to say but "thanks very much for the quality corals, they're the best we've received from anywhere," because I work all day long and don't give out anything that I wouldn't have personally stocked at my shop. Other reps work just as hard, if you're not getting good livestock from us, communicate with your rep to let them know the issue and I'm sure they'll fix it, because I guarantee that Blue Zoo existing or not is definitely not affecting the quality of the corals here. If you're dead set on not ordering from PAF any longer, do give me a call and I'll see if I can change your mind, worst that can happen is you can shoot the breeze for a few with someone else that loves corals

Just my long 2 cents :mrgreen:

 

[aquaticvet1]

The only point I was making was that BlueZoo and Reefermadness were and are directly linked to PAF ( Pacific Aqua Farms ) by ownership. You do indeed send etail livestock into communities where your retail accounts are located. You therefore DIRECTLY compete with your retail accounts for the same customers and also the available livestock.

Now that is not a problem for me, in fact I encourage more etailing to help me and others create hobbyists who buy through the mail rather than at a LFS. Your existence is good for me , creates business---- but very bad for your retail accounts, in fact you are destroying the LFS walk in business, same as I do. The thing I do not like is when companies hide their identity or are not forthcoming in ownership, goes all the way back to Reefermadness.

Lastly, as I stated before, given a choice there is no way any business should support their direct competitor. I would not expect a LFS to regularly buy from me and they would be real ignorant IMO to support PAF, their direct competitor not only for the sale but the choice livestock in the first place. Direct business conflict and one no LFS should support, and yes, they should not support me either. We both are the local fish store's worst nightmare, I admit it, you do not.

To sum it up, I hope you do not lose retail customers but perhaps there are some out there who do not understand business and enjoy supporting PAF ( Pacific Aqua Farms )---- their DIRECT competitor via BlueZoo. If there are some, well good luck selling to them.


Thank you for helping me and others create and solidify the concept of home delivery, direct to the hobbyist purchasing of livestock. In fact, IMO you are making it go faster by contributing to the demise of your own LFS accounts.


Race

 

[organism]

Your existence is good for me , creates business---- but very bad for your retail accounts, in fact you are destroying the LFS walk in business, same as I do.

The only thing that's destroying the LFS walk in business is your unethical wholesaler creating your false lack of overhead at the expense of its very clients my friend. Your transparent agenda has no shame, and I'm really scratching my head as to how you convince yourself of what you're writing, or how you could realistically expect anyone to buy it. So keep shoveling the bs, and I'll keep somehow being the "fish store's worst nightmare" by supplying walk-in stores with the ability to compete with you and anyone else on a level playing field, no matter where I'm working

On a side note, I don't believe that walk-in stores will ever get eaten by the internet, in my opinion it's going to be the other way around in the long run: walk-in stores will evolve to take over their online counterparts by adapting to doing things online as well.

To be clear, I in no way, shape or form speak for PAF, I just felt that the conversation needed a bit of logic and reality...

 

[aquaticvet1]

Both etail and retail will coexist.

I am not your customer so no need to waste words on me. PAF's owners should send an email to their LFS customers and let them know what a great service they are doing for them by offering low cost livestock and free shipping directly to their customers homes. You can bet I will spend most of this year getting the message to the retailers just how great Pacific Aqua Farms is at stealing their business via the great BlueZoo smoke screen.

Like I said, I am no saint but then I am business saavy enough to know that retailers should not support me and therefore I do not have to answer to them. PAF's owner on the other hand has a real problem by the undercutting of his retail accounts with the owning of BlueZoo.

By the way, every time you post you bring more attention to your business train wreck , please keep posting!!

 

[aquaticvet1]

I reread your post.

Competiion with me is one thing, competing with your own customers is quite another. IMO, PAF should be honest with it's retail customers and let them know that they also own Blue Zoo Aquatics, an online company that directly competes with all of Pacific Aqua Farms LFS accounts

" BlueZoo specializes in the home delivery of free shipped livestock directly to the doors of former LFS customers. "


Please help me deliver that message to local fish store owners. Feel free to use my exact wording.

 

[Raskal311]

Honestly Race doesn’t have an obligation to the LFS and it’s his ‘business’ to make as much money as he can. My finger is pointed at the wholesalers/manufacturers live and dry who allows him to do what he does. But what the heck if they feel it’s in their best long term interested then what can I say. I understand people run businesses to make money so I don’t take it personal.

 

[aquaticvet1]

I knew about PAF's ownership connection to ReeferMadness 4 years ago and PAF's ownership connection to BlueZoo about one year ago. I made no public mention of it and only brought it to light here after I was mentioned in the discussion. I really do not care how PAF treats it's retailers but I do despise pointing fingers yet using other business names to do the same thing. LiveAquaria.com competes directly for the same sale a LFS attempts to get and so does PAF via Blue Zoo Aquatics, that is the concept and therefore I would not expect a LFS to support either.

It would be a leveler playing field for the LFS if PAF simply had BlueZoo or Liveaquaria as another customer or dropshipped for them. It is a much different business model when the wholesaler and etailer are actually the same company with some of the same owners------ but using different names. PAF is fighting it's retail accounts for the exact same customer so the same owner can profit at the expense of the other accounts. This model is flawed which is why I have declined purchasing a wholesaler in California, I would expect to immediately lose most or all of the existing retail accounts. If that is not the case with PAF then you can bet within three years I will be looking to own a wholesale livestock company in LA.

 

[organism]

Honestly Race doesn’t have an obligation to the LFS and it’s his ‘business’ to make as much money as he can. My finger is pointed at the wholesalers/manufacturers live and dry who allows him to do what he does. But what the heck if they feel it’s in their best long term interested then what can I say. I understand people run businesses to make money so I don’t take it personal.

My sentiments exactly, which is why the "I'm doing this to help the LFS" thing is so transparent! Race, if you want to continue spitting your poison keep in mind that your extremely tenuous link is that a person, not a company, is affiliated with both companies. Tons of companies share many owners, and in this case these two share a partial owner. It's a huge leap of faith, not to mention an outright lie, to say that just because two companies share an owner (out of many) that the two are one and the same and directly compete, and it's clear that you ignored my first post because it competes with your agenda. If you don't like our capitalist market where people can freely invest into different ventures perhaps you should write your congressman, or move somewhere more to your liking.

I understand though, your business must be slow and you need to take down everyone else at all costs at the expense of your integrity, even resorting to lies and conspiracy theories. While you're at it, perhaps Dave has a hidden agenda and also sponsors death panels, or kicks puppies.

 

[aquaticvet1]

I get your message. I hope all the partners at PAF and BlueZoo, the former Reefermadness or whatever you all claim to be are happy with one another, LOL( like Brutus in the Popeye cartoon)------- but that is none of my business.

Please waste no more words with me, I am not your customer, I am your smaller competitor. Your LFS customers would appreciate honesty, just as I do.

 

[Anonymous]

also sponsors death panels, or kicks puppies.

:lol: outed by his own employee!!!
I friggin knew it. Last time I was at PAF a little puppy ran by with a show print on it's rear that I swear looked like Dave's shoe

 

[swsaltwater]

I find myself siding with Race here. He is my competition and no we are not on a level playing field. He has deep enough pockets to put any LFS out of business if he wanted too. That being said if you supply LFS (which Race does not) with product you should have the ethics to resist the temptation to make a quick buck and become a competator to you main customer base. Any LFS has to be retarded to purchase and support that model, I did call to complain and Daves response was basically "bummer"..........There is no way you can satisfy any LFS concern that you are not sending the cherrys to them and the crap to us, especially after I saw it first hand. In the past using the same sales rep who knows I only want super color crap send me dull lame corals(look at past post praising him at PAF). I know Lupe is not that type of guy so I can only figure lame corals is all he had to pick from, and instead of saying forget ording today we don't have crap he took the order.

 

[JennM]

I find myself siding with Race here. He is my competition and no we are not on a level playing field. He has deep enough pockets to put any LFS out of business if he wanted too.

Why would he want to? If there weren't LFS to get people started, the aquatics portion of his e-commerce business would wither. Most people get started in a brick and mortar, not online. Some migrate to online buying down the road, but I don't know of anybody that fell in love with the hobby and got into it because of a website they saw or an e-store they found.

Same applies to livestock wholesalers. I do agree that it's bad mojo to sell direct, cutting out the very retail stores that pay the wholesaler's bills every month, and I don't want to support wholesalers that do that.

I just thought I should point out that it would NOT be in an etailer's best interest to drive all LFS out of business, because in the long run it would hurt them too, with less exposure of the general public to the hobby, and if hobbyist numbers decline, so do sales of aquatic products overall.

Livestock wholesalers aren't the only ones doing it either. Plenty of hardware and dry goods manufacturers are doing it too. Not that 2 wrongs make right - again, just pointing out that the issue is very widespread.

Jenn

 

[swsaltwater]

That is why wholesalers selling direct in any connection or business model should be boycotted by LFS. They are a real threat, Race will get a small portion of the action from a lot of markets and not hurt us much individually, but by supporting a wholesaler that can and does undercut you to your customers is crazy. It also puts strain on the other wholesalers and since maybe the extra money gives them more money to get the exclusive deals with overseas suppliers, and possibly cut out some of the smaller honest guys all together. I see wholesalers popping up in all areas of the country, texas, new york, portland, seattle, chicago, etc..... I think this trend will continue as people get wise to the 104th shuffle with etail connections. QM seems to be the only one that stayed above it all on 104th. I recall calling a web site slightly before they moved off 104th and asking for Chandra, was on the line in 30 secs so we know that was their etail site.

 

[sdcfish]

SWSalwater....

Sucks that you got the brown frown corals....that is really upsetting that the service level was not up to your standards.

I think our website www.seadwelling.com which now has the "Furnace" section is so great that not only stores can buy corals site-seen, but also hobbyists are participating and calling us for certain corals they see online, and we have successfully stimulated business for our retail customers this way. I just sold 600 lbs of live rock to a hobbyist through one of our good customers in New York. Worked out great for everyone. I love this multi level marketing and bringing the hobbyists into the picture. Not selling them directly, but they do have a voice.

Thanks Dave for the props on us having stepped up on the corals....glad you noticed We have been diligently working to put together the full package and it's been working awesome! So exciting this Summer to see the great products being shipped in and out.

The trade is really kicking butt if you ask me. I love all the cool names of all the trendy corals....the real challenge is just keeping up, and that's what we are trying to do.

As far as the drop-shipping goes....we were involved a few years ago, but have not done ANY drop shipping for NON-RETAIL stores. We get inquiries all the time from etailers asking, but we just send them over to QM who specializes in that end of the industry. Not many retailers are asking for drop shipping, so the drop shipping over here is not very common.

Sticking to the topic of Rob getting some brown frown..it's just depressing to hear that a retailer prefers to tranship over buying wholesale. There are so many ethical issues involved, and the pricing is so complex that most of the stores I speak to about costing actually have no idea that it's actually MORE expensive than buying wholesale. Costing out a shipment that has so many hidden charges, it's not very easy to calculate real costs. Also, previous industry surveys have shown excessive doa's and daa's on transhipped product versus wholesale product. It's really a black cloud hanging over the industry that needs to be addressed. Fortunately we have seen a huge trend away from Transhipping and more focus back on the wholesaler. I think the slowdown might have something to do with it, and tranship is really more beneficial when done in big volume. That's the stores best chance to save, but with our efforts to lower pricing on key items, it takes away the need for transhipping and the cost factor goes away.

My best advice for retailers is to find a good sales rep who will work closely with you and make sure you are getting what you want. Nothing works better than a personal relationship. I absolutely feel we have the best products at the best price, but hey...I am a bit biased

My last plug of the day.....Join Reefcheck (www.reefcheck.org) and we will refund you the $25.00 membership fee on your next order. The industry needs to show support for the enviornment, and reefcheck is doing more for coral reefs than any other agency out there. We stand behind our commitment to the environment and are putting our money behind it!

Race....I am still waiting for my invitation to branding season! I want to be a real cowboy for a week...ok? I can ride and rope....city cowboy slicker I am

 

[dizzy]

That is why wholesalers selling direct in any connection or business model should be boycotted by LFS.

Well if our friend Raskal is shooting us straight about the 104th Stree gang selling direct to the public........................... then that would be pretty much all of them. Who would be left to buy from?

Eric C. do you sell to direct to hobbyists who come to your facility? BTW I think Obama ought to fire Robert Gibbs and hire you to handle the press briefings.

 

[aquaticvet1]

Eric,
You are probably a better cowboy than I am. I am usually the one on the ATV, far away from the horses. You are always welcome though.

Thanks, Race